Marina access in Hurricane

[Nicholson58]

Three seasons on the hard at Power Boat in Chaguaramos, Trinidad. No storms, no worries. I don’t consider even the possibility of storms.

The best storm plan is to be where they don’t occur. This was the #1 take away from Lin Pardey at a boat show talk where they presented their book Storm Tactics. The book is really helpful but the message was clear.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by Shrew

I don't believe this has anything to do with how business is conducted in the US vs other countries. There are many US marina's that will turn boats away once they are inside the 'cone of uncertainty' on a named storm.

There are many, many marina's on the southern east coast of the US that will only take in boats with seasonal storm contracts. This means, you sign a contract an pay a fee for the season for the opportunity to use that marina as a harbor of refuge in a named storm. You still pay to get hauled and stored above and beyond the contract, which is really just a retainer. Anyone who doesn't have such contract at the beginning of the season gets turned away.

The marina can't be sure your boat, cleats, lines or crew are capable of adequately securing the boat in a manner than protects the marina property or the property of their other paying guests. The marina staff typically doesn't have time to do their due diligence as their too busy securing teh marina property and guest boats.

How much for 1-2 nights berth in that marina in La Paz? I doubt the revenue is worth the headache.

This does have to do with the general arrogance and unreasonable expectations which is stereotypical of my fellow Americans.

I always hate it when some says it better than me Ineed to be more composemetos

[George DuBose]

To expect a marina to provide dockage to one is not a guest or resident, is a bit much. There is no maritime law or other law that requires a marina to provide shelter to a transient.

Beside that, marinas are not the safest place to be in a storm. If one sails in an area that is susceptible to hurricanes, it behooves oneself to have 1. a storm anchor and 2. a sheltered bay or hurricane hole and head there early.

There's something called "self-sufficient" which all sailors should practice.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

Hi all.
We have just come through another Hurricane, a Cat1 storm this time, down here in La Paz BCS.
Hurricane Lorena turned out to be a difficult storm to track, the various models showed the storm at conflicting strengths going in varying directions, so, it was a difficult decision making time, right up to the 3pm (our time) NOAA update, which showed an eastward movement bringing the storm very close to us.
Up until this time it was forecast to brush the cape of the peninsular and go out into the Pacific, missing us by a couple of hundred miles.
Everyone here at anchor was well aware of the storm and were well prepared for the event, however after this last update when we became aware of a potential direct hit, several of us contacted marina's to go in for the duration of the storm.
We have several Marina's here, 5 are large and quite new, but only 1 responded positively to my call, all other marina's informed us they were full and had no room.
I entered one of the marina's the next morning and observed at least 5 slips that were empty, I am 90% sure that all of them were empty before the storm also.
They also had a 250ft outside edge dock that was empty, which usually has two 100ft + motor yachts moored there. There are 26- 2ft concrete pilings along its length, The marina operator believes the dock may become damaged if used during a storm is what I was told when I tried making an argument to use it in an emergency.
How they believe a 40/50 sailboat might damage a dock designed to home two 200plus tonne mega yachts is beyond me?
In the event the storm turned out to travel just to the east of us, with the inner edge of the eye very close, so although we had a close call the high intensity quadrant was concentrated in a more easterly direction, and we only experienced winds in the 40Kt range.
My question would be, (what if!!!) If the storm had turned out worse and there had been injury, loss of life and vessel damage. Would there be a case to be answered by the marina's in question,for denying access and putting life in jeopardy?
I am aware that all of us have the ability to leave the boat unattended during a storm, but please be aware that if a boat goes ashore here, it is seen as fair game by the local residents and WILL be stripped in a very short time, so being on board is the only way to try to save your home in a bad situation.
Bearing in mind 3 lives were lost here in 2014 during Hurricane O'dile.
I understand that many questions may arise from this post, but my rhetoric has gone long already, please ask away and I'll be happy to reply.

It's a marinas prerogative. You expect them to assume liability, which you would be. only when a storm is coming? What are you expecting to pay them their daily rate?

[captlloyd]

Ann hit the nail on the head. I have come to love Mexico and it’s people. But if you think you are going to win a judgement against a Mexican marina over access during a hurricane you don’t know how things work in Latin America. Plus your legal fees would probably outweigh and judgement you are unlikely to receive.

[JPA Cate]

Hello again, seamentress,

I believe--but have not verified--that marinas in Mexico would not carry insurance for liability, and that Admiralty Law (that's British) would not apply for a land based operation, in any event in a country whose Law is Napoleonic. It is as foreign to us as Shariah Law, about which I know next to nothing.

Chuck (chouli) knows what he is talking about, though, and at least as far as Marina de La Paz is concerned, I remember the previous owners took especially good care of their regular clients prior to the arrival of storms, and that would not surprise me if it were the same, still.

I don't know how much Spanish you have, but Googling on Seguros en Mexico (Insurance in Mexico) might be a place to start.

It is not illegal to refuse entry to marinas, and there is no portion of law that might force one to allow entry.

In your position, which was scary, looking down the open mouth of the hurricane on its way, I can understand why you might feel quite upset that you were denied the perceived safety of a marina for you and your boat. The Mexican judge would look at the situation and say, something like, "Good lady, if you are afraid for your life, you must anchor your boat off El Mogote, and hope for the best for it. There are hotels you can stay in where you will be safe."

We cannot expect to be treated any differently than the local people, in all the foreign countries we visit. We have a lack of "rights." That is part of cruising. We are guests, above all, and it behooves us to be friendly and pleasant, even though we may suffer inconveniences and indignities.

Ann

[Bamboo1]

Hi,

There is some great advice from BoatUS on the effects and preparing for a hurricane. It's worth a read, even if you have been through numbers of storms.

https://www.boatus.com/hurricanes/as...prep_guide.pdf

[Seamentress]

I would like to thank everyone who has added to this discussion so far and after reading all of your comments I find it difficult to understand why so many people have misread the original thread or misunderstood the circumstances of the situation after I very carefully explained them.

When all the Bull is discarded, all it really comes down to is this.

By refusing access to several vessels in distress and in fear of damage and loss of life, Does a Marina or safe haven have the right to put the lives of the people at risk in jeopardy, especially when they have the ability to offer safety.?

Is there no moral, humanitarian or legal obligation to help?

Is it more difficult to complete an insurance claim for dock damage than attend the funeral of someone who drowned as a result of such a denial?

Regardless of the circumstances leading up to the event, wouldn't any of you guys offer help to a boater in need of help?

I know I would, and indeed have put myself in harms way in the past,to help fellows in distress, I have done it many times in fact.

Maybe it is too much to expect to be treated as you would treat others in need of help, sure does seem like it reading some of these replies.

Anyway, I once again thank you for your input.
God Bless and stay safe.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

I would like to thank everyone who has added to this discussion so far and after reading all of your comments I find it difficult to understand why so many people have misread the original thread or misunderstood the circumstances of the situation after I very carefully explained them.

When all the Bull is discarded, all it really comes down to is this.

By refusing access to several vessels in distress and in fear of damage and loss of life, Does a Marina or safe haven have the right to put the lives of the people at risk in jeopardy, especially when they have the ability to offer safety.?

Is there no moral, humanitarian or legal obligation to help?

Is it more difficult to complete an insurance claim for dock damage than attend the funeral of someone who drowned as a result of such a denial?

Regardless of the circumstances leading up to the event, wouldn't any of you guys offer help to a boater in need of help?

I know I would, and indeed have put myself in harms way in the past,to help fellows in distress, I have done it many times in fact.

Maybe it is too much to expect to be treated as you would treat others in need of help, sure does seem like it reading some of these replies.

Anyway, I once again thank you for your input.
God Bless and stay safe.

For years I have been astonished that people keep their boats in La Paz during hurricane season, particularly anchored in Mogote; it gets hit EVERY YEAR. Boats are lost, marinas have been wrecked, lives have been lost.

I would never keep my boat there during hurricane season, but you do.

The marina HAS NOT put lives in danger; that's on YOU for being there.

You ask, "Is there no moral, humanitarian or legal obligation to help?" There is a greater obligation to protect their longtime clients and their property, not free loaders who want to come in for a day or two when a storm threatens.

Move your boat out of the hurricane zone or to a hurricane hole. Don't look to others to save your bacon when you don't take responsibility for it yourself.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

I would like to thank everyone who has added to this discussion so far and after reading all of your comments I find it difficult to understand why so many people have misread the original thread or misunderstood the circumstances of the situation after I very carefully explained them.

When all the Bull is discarded, all it really comes down to is this.

By refusing access to several vessels in distress and in fear of damage and loss of life, Does a Marina or safe haven have the right to put the lives of the people at risk in jeopardy, especially when they have the ability to offer safety.?

Is there no moral, humanitarian or legal obligation to help?

Is it more difficult to complete an insurance claim for dock damage than attend the funeral of someone who drowned as a result of such a denial?

Regardless of the circumstances leading up to the event, wouldn't any of you guys offer help to a boater in need of help?

I know I would, and indeed have put myself in harms way in the past,to help fellows in distress, I have done it many times in fact.

Maybe it is too much to expect to be treated as you would treat others in need of help, sure does seem like it reading some of these replies.

Anyway, I once again thank you for your input.
God Bless and stay safe.

Well let's discard the bull then.

1- your vessel was not in distress (at least according to you). You argue that it might become damaged by the storm - but at this point your vessel is perfectly sound and can be sailed, or anchored. So no distress.

2- If no distress - then no lives are in danger. If you precieve that lives are in danger - then there is nothing stopping you from taking your dinghy in, letting the boat ride out the storm, while you and your guests sit in a bar drinking tequila and watching the storm go by. So no risk of life.

3- Morals and humanitarian obligations vary from country to country, culture to culture - your morals might say that there is an obligation - that is not true for anyone else's.

4- Legal obligation. I would sincerely doubt it. The marina is not a boat at sea. At sea we do have an obligation to help sailors in distress, yet you were not in distress. No legal obligation as far as I can see

I suspect that almost everyone on this board would cheerfully put themselves at risk to help a fellow sailor in distress - we have any number of times. sometimes we've barely received thanks, other times we've been paid in that coin of the sea - a bottle of wine.

A marina really has zero obligation towards you. Had you radioed in saying, "my boat is sinking, I need to sail directly to the crane and be hauled" they might help you. denying you entrance because you are seeking shelter from an approaching hurricane is not necessarily wrong.

[Ruso]

Well summarized, Carstenb!

[chouliha]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hello again, seamentress,

I remember the previous owners took especially good care of their regular clients prior to the arrival of storms, and that would not surprise me if it were the same, still.


Ann

Same owners second generation. The rug rat you may remember running all around the marina when we were there in the 80's is now the general manager and a very good one to boot!

Who is down walking the docks when there is a hurricane - the Jefe and marina staff!! Marina Papeete sure could learn a heck of a lot about how to run a marina from these folks.

Cheers

Chuck

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

By refusing access to several vessels in distress and in fear of damage and loss of life, Does a Marina or safe haven have the right to put the lives of the people at risk in jeopardy, especially when they have the ability to offer safety.?

Is there no moral, humanitarian or legal obligation to help?

Is it more difficult to complete an insurance claim for dock damage than attend the funeral of someone who drowned as a result of such a denial?

Regardless of the circumstances leading up to the event, wouldn't any of you guys offer help to a boater in need of help?

I know I would, and indeed have put myself in harms way in the past,to help fellows in distress, I have done it many times in fact.

1) You assume the marina could offer safety; being in a marina may or may not be safe(r), and accepting another boat may put existing marina residents at more risk. Whether true or not, they would not be putting the lives of people at risk. IOW, if you were at risk, that wasn't their fault.

2) No legal obligation. Moral and humanitarian obligation goes to their existing residents too; accepting visitors may exacerbate their situation. (I suspect you don't know what they were thinking, why they were thinking it, and have assumed they were just being snotty?)

3) Forms are a minor detail; accepting a new resident could have been putting existing residents at additional risk... and the marina wouldn't want to attend several funerals on their behalf either.

4) Can't tell. If I could offer assistance without jeopardizing anyone else, sure, probably. But I can't tell if that would be applicable in the situation you're describing.

IOW, not having floated a mile in their deck shoes... I can't find any reason to criticize their actions... and it may well have been that their course of action was the safest they could work out for the most people who might be affected.

IOOW, just because you were maybe in danger doesn't necessarily mean they needed to do what you thought they ought to do.

-Chris

[AndyEss]

Paul - I suspect those big motoryachts on the seaward dock may have been asked to leave during the storm because the dock couldn't carry their loading. At their speed, they could probably make Puerto Escondido pretty quickly. Getting rid of very well heeled long time clients and then taking on last minute boats doesn't seem to make for much of a business plan.
As an aside, us Mogotians aren't thought of particularly well by many. The collection of abandoned boats and non-operative boats doesn't help our image.
I know you suffered in an earlier hurricane several years ago, but the La Paz marinas aren't at fault for our decisions. I don't believe they have a pull-up the drawbridge and laugh at us attitude - they have their long term clients best interests at heart, along with covering their own self-interests. As much as you want to protect your home, the owners have a right to protect their own hard earned business assets.
I am glad Lorena was a relative non-event and all of us dodged a bullet on this one. And I do appreciate all the good you and your missus do for us.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

I would like to thank everyone who has added to this discussion so far and after reading all of your comments I find it difficult to understand why so many people have misread the original thread or misunderstood the circumstances of the situation after I very carefully explained them.

When all the Bull is discarded, all it really comes down to is this.

By refusing access to several vessels in distress and in fear of damage and loss of life, Does a Marina or safe haven have the right to put the lives of the people at risk in jeopardy, especially when they have the ability to offer safety.?

Is there no moral, humanitarian or legal obligation to help?

Is it more difficult to complete an insurance claim for dock damage than attend the funeral of someone who drowned as a result of such a denial?

Regardless of the circumstances leading up to the event, wouldn't any of you guys offer help to a boater in need of help?

I know I would, and indeed have put myself in harms way in the past,to help fellows in distress, I have done it many times in fact.

Maybe it is too much to expect to be treated as you would treat others in need of help, sure does seem like it reading some of these replies.

Anyway, I once again thank you for your input.
God Bless and stay safe.

You obviously don't get it.


I was really refreshed to see the Mexican way about "Don't hit your head on the air conditioner/fall in the hole in the street" etc. when we cruised there. The USA used to be like that when I was a kid, but now it's been taken over by "How can I sue the crap out of someone when I get a boo boo from my own / lack of forward thinking / stupidity?"


Sorry if I'm not being sensitive to your (now nonexistent ) plight.