Lead Crystal Batteries in Australia

[SV.Louna]

There is multiple issues with what they have done from a sales point and from a technical point of view, for instance the client Myself is informed you then have the option to make a informed decision. And once they have your money they are no longer interested this is the problem and 12 months later they are giving me this information on charging and telling me the rest of the battery pack is going to fail sounds like they have had this before

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by LouisAndNatasha

There is multiple issues with what they have done from a sales point and from a technical point of view, for instance the client Myself is informed you then have the option to make a informed decision. And once they have your money they are no longer interested this is the problem and 12 months later they are giving me this information on charging and telling me the rest of the battery pack is going to fail sounds like they have had this before

Agreed. That doesn't sound like the best customer service.

[john61ct]

To be clear, I did not mean to imply that the LC batts were no good as regular AGM.

Just the vendors' extraordinary claims wrt logevity, resistance to deeper cycling and PSOC abuse as a substitute for going to LFP.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by LouisAndNatasha

Here is what the supplier asked me to do:

Charging - The charger is significantly undersized for the size of the battery Pack. The XXXXX series of Lead Crystal Batteries need to be charged at 20% of the C10 Rate. You have a 1040 AH pack at C10 therefore needing a 200 Amp charge current…Minimum. We understand that you have a Victron Quatro 120 Amp charger that was set on 70 Amps with the ADAPTIVE CHARGE MODE. What this means is that the charger would be producing around 40 Amps at best. This charge current was way too low. Any loads coming of the battery will reduce the available charge current limiting even further the batteries ability to charge up. This basically means the charger will be constantly charging which causes heat to build up.

Charger Settings - The charger needs to be set as follows

Bulk 14.6 at 20% of the 10 hour rate of the battery, in parallel the charger should be x 2 of the amps to ensure correct charging in bulk mode
Absorb 14.7 at 10% of the 10 hour rate of the battery and again same current applies as above
Float when the boat is dormant should be set at 13.7 and 5 amp max current applies.

So they are rating them at 1040AH. However, the batteries were stamped with 210AH each at 6v multiplied by 8, you do the math...

I'm not an expert so someone please tell me I'm wrong.

It seems kind of counter-intuitive if you have a battery getting hot and expanding to then have to increase the charging current. I'd want to go the other way.

The supplier said they need to be charged at 20% of the C10 rate so at 210 AH each battery ideally wants 42 amps. If you have 2 banks of 4 to give a 24V system then each bank has the batteries wired in series and each battery in the bank gets the same as the others. This should be 42 amps per bank not per battery, 84 amps if you are charging both at the same time but certainly nowhere near the 200 amps they suggest.

I think they've given you very bad advice to charge at 200 amps MINIMUM.

There's probably a reason why you don't get 200 amp chargers.

Please feel free to tell me I'm wrong. What do you think?

[john61ct]

For the top quality deep-cycling AGM makers in the NA market - Lifeline, Odyssey and Northstar - .2C is the minimum recommended charge rate, with one recommending .4C as the minimum for best longevity.

This is much higher than what was originally thought when Enersys first developed this TPPL flat plate technology under their military R&D contracts (also the spiral design spun off as Optima).

Maybe only realized starting 5 years ago, and only documented in the last 3 or so.

So for a 600AH bank, that's 180A and 360A respectively, as a minimum starting point.

Yes, it is very common to just stack high amp chargers in parallel to double/ triple current rates.

And of course you need chargers with dedicated temp sensors to the bank (needed for temp compensation anyway) and robust wiring infrastructure.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Perna

I'm not an expert so someone please tell me I'm wrong.

It seems kind of counter-intuitive if you have a battery getting hot and expanding to then have to increase the charging current. I'd want to go the other way.

The supplier states that it is the duration of charging, not the rate that caused the problem. Because they were constantly charging, they were constantly getting hotter, rather than having rest periods to cool down after fast charges. It all depends on the heating v charging rate profile. Apparently LCs don't heat up much more with much hgher charging rates.

The supplier said they need to be charged at 20% of the C10 rate so at 210 AH each battery ideally wants 42 amps. If you have 2 banks of 4 to give a 24V system then each bank has the batteries wired in series and each battery in the bank gets the same as the others. This should be 42 amps per bank not per battery, 84 amps if you are charging both at the same time but certainly nowhere near the 200 amps they suggest.

Apparently each battery is 6V an it's wired up as a 12V system.

"210AH each at 6v multiplied by 8" = 810Ah @ 12 V

Forget how they are inividually wired. You need to consider the battery bank as single entity. 84A in only 0.1C


[quote]
I think they've given you very bad advice to charge at 200 amps MINIMUM.
[quote]
All of their documentation says a minimum of 0.2C for initial bulk charge. Depending on the particular battery model, some are suppose to be charged at 0.3C to 0.5C !

There's probably a reason why you don't get 200 amp chargers.

Please feel free to tell me I'm wrong. What do you think?

I'm guessing that they didn't anticipate people building large banks with their batteries

[StuM]

Originally Posted by LouisAndNatasha

Charger Settings - The charger needs to be set as follows

Bulk 14.6 at 20% of the 10 hour rate of the battery, in parallel the charger should be x 2 of the amps to ensure correct charging in bulk mode
Absorb 14.7 at 10% of the 10 hour rate of the battery and again same current applies as above
Float when the boat is dormant should be set at 13.7 and 5 amp max current applies.

So they are rating them at 1040AH. However, the batteries were stamped with 210AH each at 6v multiplied by 8, you do the math...

I think I've solved that inconsistency. From:


http://www.batterycentralbrisbane.co...FJ-210Ah-1.pdf


Rated Capacity (3hr rate) : 210 Ah (what's on the box)
10 hour rate: 260 Ah (used for charging calcuations)

[hellosailor]

A 200A charger at a nominal 14.4VDC output, including some inefficiency, would be pushing 3000 watts. In the US that would pretty much consume one entire "30 amp 110V" standard dockside power connection, so there's a real question to whether the OP could FEED that big a charger even if he could get it.

In his fix, If I could only get a 120A charger but was told that bank of eight batteries needed 200A....I'd split the house bank, A/B, each having four batteries and in theory only needing 100A, within the range of the charger. Not ideal but "as good as it gets" given the limited charger.

What the vendor is saying now, about the charging system being all wrong and inadequate and nothing being their fault, would quickly go to small claims court in the US. Here, we have the Uniform Commercial Code, one of many federal warranty acts that sometimes protects individuals as well as commercial transactions. And one part of that is that sellers are required to follow specific statutory warranty terms unless their sales terms state otherwise, and that the goods they actually deliver will be "suitable for use" as the user has intended them to be.
So, depending on Australian law? And the written documentation of the sale? Yes, it is possible to say OK, the vendor is right, all of this happened because they batteries were not charged at 200A. And that they had reason to know the buyer had no chance of using a 200A charger, so they should have said up front "You can't use these that way, if you do, there will be no warranty and they will fail."
The OP needs to gather some documentation, find some local counsel, and let the counsel conduct all further contact with the vendor--in writing. This is the kind of situation where the only way any progress will be made, is if someone finds a law that applies and enforces it.

[Perna]

StuM, I don't think you can forget how they were wired. If you say the 10h rate is 260 Ah that means they each need 52A. Each battery in series gets the same current so each bank also needs only 52A.

So to charge each battery at 52A -
a 24V system is 2 banks of 4 needs 110A
a 12V system is 4 banks of 2 needs 220A
a 6V system, needs 440A

So if it's a 12V system then 220A is right but the OP said he had 2 banks of 4, so only 110A is needed??

I’m starting this thread on these batteries as I don’t believe they are near as good as they say they are. My previous battery banks were 2 banks of 4 T105 Trojan 6volts lead acid wet batteries. After many years these finally gave up the ghost and I started looking at the alternatives what to replace with.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Perna

StuM, I don't think you can forget how they were wired. If you say the 10h rate is 260 Ah that means they each need 52A. Each battery in series gets the same current so each bank also needs only 52A.

So to charge each battery at 52A -
a 24V system is 2 banks of 4 needs 110A
a 12V system is 4 banks of 2 needs 220A
a 6V system, needs 440A

So if it's a 12V system then 220A is right but the OP said he had 2 banks of 4, so only 110A is needed??

I’m starting this thread on these batteries as I don’t believe they are near as good as they say they are. My previous battery banks were 2 banks of 4 T105 Trojan 6volts lead acid wet batteries. After many years these finally gave up the ghost and I started looking at the alternatives what to replace with.

He needs 110A @ 12 V if he is only charging half of the batteries at a time. Or @ 24V if he is charging the whole lot.



Based on: "You have a 1040 AH pack", and "replaced the 2 batteries out of a bank of 8", I'm assuming that the OP has all 8 batteries wired together to give 12V.



In which case he has 2 x series connected sets of 4 parallel connected batteries.



But whether he has that or 4 x parallel sets of 2 x series connected pairs ir irrelevant. All that matters is that he has a total of 1040Ah @ 12V and he is charging them all at once. And charging 1040Ah needs 200+ Amps.

[SV.Louna]

Just give you some idea on how affected the batteries are
Here is a couple of photos

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by LouisAndNatasha

G’day Bob
I have considered doing this, however I am so PO’d with these batteries, the best I think fair trading could achieve is a new set of batteries. And then I’m back to where I was 12 months ago. I have refitted T105’s in there for the time being and starting to do homework on Lithium.

I'd go ahead and lodge the complaint and copy it to the all the addresses listed on their web site. They might come to the party.

I gave up on experimenting with different battery manufacturers in search of a lower cost but quality brand and ended up settling on the T105's even if you have to keep up with the regular watering. In the long term it turned out to be less a burden on my nervous energy.

The lithium thing is very tempting but even if you install half the amp hours of comparative lead acid the damned things are still too expensive.

[Perna]

Hi L and N,
do you have a 12V or a 24V system? Cos if its 24V you should not use 200 amps charging.

[SV.Louna]

Yes 12 V system

[David B]

Originally Posted by LouisAndNatasha

I’m starting this thread on these batteries as I don’t believe they are near as good as they say they are. My previous battery banks were 2 banks of 4 T105 Trojan 6volts lead acid wet batteries. After many years these finally gave up the ghost and I started looking at the alternatives what to replace with.

Mmmm - my thought remains that value for money, a decent quality set of FLA batteries is hard to beat.

They do not have critical charging requirements, looked after, they last for many years (ours are in their seventh year now - at the end of each season I give them an equalisation charge with a separate 7-stage charger), and when they do fail, the outlay is comparatively low compared to any of the other options.

When you look at Dollars per effective Ah (taking into account the maximum recommended discharge), and the expected service life, they stack up extremely well.