Electrical Panel replacement

[goboatingnow]

In relation to thinned wires. No doubt anything on the outside of the boat absolutely needs tinning but I cut into my 18 year old below deck wiring internally recently and some was untinned and in all cases pristine.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s irelevant , my recent lightening strike vapourised the ray wind instrument , the spike coupled down the non 2K transducer wiring blew across the comms chip in the sT60 wind instrument , coupled into the Seatalk 1 bus , blew across into the SEATALK NG ( 2k) converter and took out all the devices connected to the nmea 2000 bus.

It also coupled into the DC bus and took out all the Victron gear, the AP arm clutch and the rotor and regulator of the alternator , my own electronics handled the DC bus spike and survived ( as did all the cheap Chinese less fittings , all 25 of them !! And the cheap Chinese invertor )

Hence I believe it doesn’t make a rats arse what you run up the mast

Would lightning suppressor's in multiply places in the wiring have helped at all?

Lightning protection is a whole other topic on its own. Here we have learnt the hard way the only thing that really protects equipment is to unplug everything as a storm approaches. Of course you have to be onsite to do this. Not much use if you are some distance away.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

So then, N2K up the mast is fine. No need to worry about the NEMA183 thing?



Ok, so then the only protection from lightning is to unplug everything when you see a storm approaching. May not be practical out to sea when you need everything running, but at dock or on anchor it may be practical ?

All my gear was powered off at the breakers but the nmea 2000 definitely facilitated the propagation of the strike , disconnecting all the Seatalk cabling isn’t practical , as it would require dismantling of the panels

Is this was a requirement the best would be run long drop cables to a central nmea 2000 connection hub and place that hub where it’s easy to access. The all the drop cables could be disconnected easily and quickly. I’m not sure it would protect everything though.

But yes what’s up the mast is not relevant in my view once’s things are linked together it matters not what type of linkage it is , the strike will propagate anyway

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

All my gear was powered off at the breakers but the nmea 2000 definitely facilitated the propagation of the strike , disconnecting all the Seatalk cabling isn’t practical

So what if you disconnected just one N2K connection at the master N2K junction box - then its a physical disconnect from the cable up the mast from the master N2K junction box.

We get pretty intense lightning here from about December to March, with December and January being the worst. Thankfully from end of April till November we get zero lightning.

While my boat rides at anchor over those lightning prone months I will disconnect at strategic places on the boat.

It all depends if it is a direct strike or a nearby strike. If direct, then nothing much will save anything. Its something like 30,000 amps of electricity being conducted.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

So what if you disconnected just one N2K connection at the master N2K junction box - then its a physical disconnect from the cable up the mast from the master N2K junction box.



We get pretty intense lightning here from about December to March, with December and January being the worst. Thankfully from end of April till November we get zero lightning.



While my boat rides at anchor over those lightning prone months I will disconnect at strategic places on the boat.



It all depends if it is a direct strike or a nearby strike. If direct, then nothing much will save anything. Its something like 30,000 amps of electricity being conducted.

To prevent n2k propagation you’d need all devices disconnected from each other a central nema2000 connector hub would facilitate this assuming the drop lengths remain within spec , which they will on typical boats.

As you say if you really get 30000 amps thd last thing in your mind will the N2K network. Swimming away from your submerged yacht tends to concentrate the mind.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

To prevent n2k propagation you’d need all devices disconnected from each other a central nema2000 connector hub would facilitate this assuming the drop lengths remain within spec , which they will on typical boats.

As you say if you really get 30000 amps thd last thing in your mind will the N2K network. Swimming away from your submerged yacht tends to concentrate the mind.

As an aside, how would an aluminium hull affect this ? Would the aluminium dissipate the electrical charge from the lightning strike into the surrounding water ?

[Turtle Blues]

Post 29 sums it up for comms cabling. Have worked on several lightning related refits that allowed me to salvage the electronics. The backbone connections that were in the bilge fried the pins inside the fittings, 2 without any external melting. Anything on the mast blew apart the bases where grounding connections were made. Wiring inside the mast was fused. Surprisingly electronics that had secondary board mounted fusing were repairable. Bonding connections seemed visually to have carried the brunt of the load. Realize this is all completely anecdotal.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

As an aside, how would an aluminium hull affect this ? Would the aluminium dissipate the electrical charge from the lightning strike into the surrounding water ?

Any system that provides a low resistance path for the strike to exit , protects the boats systems ( and physical hardware ) to a greater or lessor extent. The issue all boils down to degree. I had purely electrical damage as the mast is thickly bonded to the cast iron keel.

[noelex 77]

That is an expensive dual pole circuit breaker panel (switching both positive and negative circuits).

I am not a great fan of the digital switching systems, but even if you disagree I think all the commercial systems are only single pole. Does anyone know of a dual pole system?

Dual pole systems have safety advantages, significantly reducing the fire risk and importantly for aluminium boats dramatically reducing the likelihood of stray current corrosion problems.

There are better alternatives to digital switching.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

The biggest issue (problem) with electrical systems on old boats is not the switching but the wiring. Copper wiring oxidises, goes black and crunchy the connections build up resistance that leads to further problems.
Using tinned wire for marine applications is by far the most positive (pun) thing you can do.
It really annoys me that some top of the range, expensive marine equipment still comes with raw copper tails.

All true. However, I have rarely (if ever) heard of insulated copper wiring disintegrating from the middle of the wire.



It is always at the end(s) where the insulation has been removed which is, of course, necessary to make connections. It would also mean that's why there are those raw tails...???



That said, it means you can SEE if there is a problem.


Dry boats usually have less issues with oxidizing wires but it does occur in the marine environment.

[nuku34]

To the OP: since your whole rationale for "updating" the electrical panel is that its" ugly ugly ugly", here's a cheap solution. Take a full sized hi-def photo of whatever panel you like, mount it on a hinged panel over the existing perfectly functional panel. When you want to actually engage with your electrical system, just swing the pretty panel out of the way. Everyone who visits your yacht will be highly impressed, and you save heaps of $.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by nuku34

To the OP: since your whole rationale for "updating" the electrical panel is that its" ugly ugly ugly", here's a cheap solution. Take a full sized hi-def photo of whatever panel you like, mount it on a hinged panel over the existing perfectly functional panel. When you want to actually engage with your electrical system, just swing the pretty panel out of the way. Everyone who visits your yacht will be highly impressed, and you save heaps of $.

Why, thank you for that wonderful and helpful advice.

Its not about impressing anyone. Its first and foremost, safety - how do these old panels hold up over time ? I know at the in-laws farm we have been replacing circuit breakers and switch gear that are around 40 years old. They just fail - some give a burning smell as they fail. I dont want that on my boat.

As for appearance - yes its a vanity thing - who doesn't want a beautiful interior ? The whole interior of this boat is very dated and frankly, a bit tired. I would like to clean it all up and modernise as much as I can. Refreshing the electrical system cant be a bad thing. Sure, some of it might not need doing (wiring?) but to upgrade/update all the switchgear is no bad thing. The only repugnant part about it is the cost.

Other then your post which is quite useless, there have been some really helpful and insightful posts here about this. Its good to get the point of view of seasoned salties on all these matters.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

All true. However, I have rarely (if ever) heard of insulated copper wiring disintegrating from the middle of the wire.



It is always at the end(s) where the insulation has been removed which is, of course, necessary to make connections. It would also mean that's why there are those raw tails...???



That said, it means you can SEE if there is a problem.


Dry boats usually have less issues with oxidizing wires but it does occur in the marine environment.

Thanks for your input Stu.

It seems the consensus is the wiring will be fine. A visual inspection of the wiring at the switch panel end and at the end where it connects something will tell all. If upon closer inspection I do see signs of oxidation I will investigate further.

I am a bit concerned about "additions" made to the wiring over the years. There is some of that but at this point I dont know how extensive that is.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

That is an expensive dual pole circuit breaker panel (switching both positive and negative circuits).

I am not a great fan of the digital switching systems, but even if you disagree I think all the commercial systems are only single pole. Does anyone know of a dual pole system?

Dual pole systems have safety advantages, significantly reducing the fire risk and importantly for aluminium boats dramatically reducing the likelihood of stray current corrosion problems.

There are better alternatives to digital switching.

Nolex, thanks for your input.

I didn't know of the implications of dual pole switching on an aluminium boat. Can you elaborate any further on it or point to some reading material on it?

I know what a dual pole breaker is with mains electrical systems. I have seen dual pole DC breakers for solar systems etc. DC breakers are a whole different beast compared to AC. Quenching a DC arc is difficult, which is why DC breakers are bigger and heavier and much more expensive.

You have raised a very good point about dual pole breakers. I hadn't even thought of it.

So perhaps a way forward is to take the old panel and clean it up a bit - depending on what is made from, a new powder coating and some laser etching and some better quality digital gauges to replace the old analogue ones.

Those breakers look to be a bit specialized - I wonder where I would find new ones to replace the old ones? Doesn't matter what anyone says - 35 Y.O breakers are due for replacement - my own experience in land tells me that.

I am now wondering if that is why such dual pole breakers were used in the first place - because its an aluminium boat. The boat was built by Garcia who are well known aluminium yacht builders in France. They would know what is needed and the fact this panel has the dual breakers does seem to indicate a need for such a system. I need to dig deep into this and understand it better.

This thread has been highly helpful and very very useful. Thanks to all who participated.

[Jim Jones]

This been a very useful thread - I am now awake to several insights about the electricals I had not considered before.

I think I need to study boat electrics as they pertain to yachts.

Does anyone have any good url's etc to material about yacht electrics? Which books should I be chasing down so that I can further my education on all this ?