Electrical Panel replacement

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

Thanks for your tips - much appreciated. Can you give any further info on this option? Any where to look at such panels ?

There lots of them. For example https://www.paneltronics.com/Electri...ls.php?op=Home

[SeeMonstrEd]

Don't know if you have seen this:
https://www.youtube.com/c/OddLifeCrafting
They basically did a complete refit on an Aluminum hull and filmed the whole adventure.
Lots of wiring, replaced hatches, engine, and lots more.
All done in Brazil but speaking English.

interesting to watch.

[Overlord]

I have a new bluesea 360 panel if your interested. It is 12dc and 110v ac

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Probably not what you want to hear, but... I think plain old analog systems are reliable and easy to repair when you are not on the dock at home. Digital? Fussy, and just a replace/throw away as necessary thing. I'm probably a bit old school, but on boats believe strongly in the KISS method. Black boxes are just tough to deal with.
The breakers in the old system either work or they dont. They are common, easy to find and do fail occasionally, usually by tripping with too low a load, but are not expensive if you look around.

I agree with you totally. We have seen modern panels on rally boats that failed somewhere between Hampton, Virginia and Antigua. No work around and no repairs or replacement in the Caribbean. Not just breakers but the motherboard.

ROXY main panel. 24 & 12 DC and 110/220 AC.

Modern stuff is amusing while it works. OK for a dock queen but not practical. My panel is 1983. All still works. Many modern breakers will fit.

Rewire to use ABYC certified wire and replace early un-tinned copper. Usually, you will find a lot of abandoned wires to remove. Add functions and remote panels but keep the hardware simple.

[goboatingnow]

I tend to avoid the cheaper thermal breakers like those shown in the picture above. My experience is they are very poor switches and many boats use the breakers as switches. I had ones on a 1988 boat and had to replace several . These breakers are rarely available in double pole variants

The better electro hydraulic breakers like the Carling series are very reliable and tend to be excellent switches as well. However they are bulky and a complex panel can grow very large.

Personally I break up switching from circuit breaking , I install toggle switches on commonly used circuits ( nav lights , water pumps , fridges etc ) and relegate the breakers to just that function , ie protecting wiring.

This also means panels need not be mounted in a Eye level position , an awful lot of useful ergonomic space is often lost to large panels.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The better electro hydraulic breakers like the Carling series are very reliable and tend to be excellent switches as well. However they are bulky and a complex panel can grow very large.

Personally I break up switching from circuit breaking , I install toggle switches on commonly used circuits ( nav lights , water pumps , fridges etc ) and relegate the breakers to just that function , ie protecting wiring.

This also means panels need not be mounted in a Eye level position , an awful lot of useful ergonomic space is often lost to large panels.

Thermal breakers are not as good as magnetic/thermal breakers.

Magnetic/thermal breakers are frequently used as switches on a boat. This does reduce their life so it is better to have easily replaceable breakers (such as the din rail option). This avoids the complication extra connection and added failure points of switches.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Thermal breakers are not as good as magnetic/thermal breakers.



Magnetic/thermal breakers are frequently used as switches on a boat. This does reduce their life so it is better to have easily replaceable breakers (such as the din rail option). This avoids the complication extra connection and added failure points of switches.

My experience is most of the DIN rail units are bulky , ( especially double pole types ) secondly I have found they corrode more rapidly in the marine environment and thirdly it’s very hard to make a neat panel.

Good switches are not failure points so I don’t agree there , switches can be grouped and placed where best needed ergonomically and in fact can combine functions ( like nav light selectors etc. ) I have single switches to bring in all the sailing instruments even though they are across several breakers . In reality breakers should be hidden away doing the job they were meant to do , protecting the wiring. Your house wiring has the right idea. !!

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I tend to avoid the cheaper thermal breakers like those shown in the picture above. My experience is they are very poor switches and many boats use the breakers as switches. I had ones on a 1988 boat and had to replace several . These breakers are rarely available in double pole variants

The better electro hydraulic breakers like the Carling series are very reliable and tend to be excellent switches as well. However they are bulky and a complex panel can grow very large.

Personally I break up switching from circuit breaking , I install toggle switches on commonly used circuits ( nav lights , water pumps , fridges etc ) and relegate the breakers to just that function , ie protecting wiring.

This also means panels need not be mounted in a Eye level position , an awful lot of useful ergonomic space is often lost to large panels.

Mine, shown, are 1983. Zero failures, big bag of ancient spares. All single pole. Difficult as switches. The button is hard to hold and pull. I found single pole toggle switch type modern replacements but have not had occasion to replace one. I made a slotted tool to pop them easily. The LED indicators are soldered in at the back plane. Replacing one requires a bit of engineering knowledge. It would be nice to have the light integral.

All new wiring gets local switches. I alway Use two pole dry contact switches as near the device as possible. Break both plus and minus wires to lessen the possibility of lightning damage from induced spikes. After three hits, trial and fry, I know this to work. Especially true for electronics. I also added a 48 pin plug at the mast. Break before a storm.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

My experience is most of the DIN rail units are bulky , ( especially double pole types ) secondly I have found they corrode more rapidly in the marine environment and thirdly it’s very hard to make a neat panel.

Good switches are not failure points so I don’t agree there , switches can be grouped and placed where best needed ergonomically and in fact can combine functions ( like nav light selectors etc. ) really breakers should be hidden away doing the job they were meant to do , protecting the wiring.

Agreed, Din rail circuit breakers are more bulky and have an “industrial” look that is not always appreciated, but the standard size ensures that the same sized units are available from multiple manufacturers. They are very easily replaceable. The large size actually helps. It permits large contact surfaces, so they tend to be more rather than less reliable in my experience.

As I indicated, I am not a great fan of adding the extra complication and failure points of switches. Combining switches together to perform functions is even worse, as it creates the problem of a single failure point.

For example, we have seperate circuit breakers for tricolour, lower navigation lights and anchor lights (as well as deck, spreader and arc lights). Some boats combine their navigation lights to a single switch that selects sailing, motoring or anchoring. This latter option is convenient and cheaper for the boatbuilder to wire and removes the chance of mistakes from novice crew, but if this switch fails then no easy options are available. All navigation lights can be lost due to the failure of a single component or circuit, which is not ideal in my view.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Agreed, Din rail circuit breakers are more bulky and have an “industrial” look that is not always appreciated, but the standard size ensures that the same sized units are available from multiple manufacturers. They are very easily replaceable. The large size actually helps. It permits large contact surfaces, so they tend to be more rather than less reliable in my experience.

As I indicated, I am not a great fan of adding the extra complication and failure points of switches. Combining switches together to perform functions is even worse, as it creates the problem of a single failure point.

For example, we have seperate circuit breakers for tricolour, lower navigation lights and anchor lights (as well as deck, spreader and arc lights). Some boats combine their navigation lights to a single switch that selects sailing, motoring or anchoring. This latter option is convenient and cheaper for the boatbuilder to wire and removes the chance of mistakes from novice crew, but if this switch fails then no easy options are available. All navigation lights can be lost due to the failure of a single component or circuit, which is not ideal in my view.

Well anyone with a modicum of knowledge can either replace a switch or temporarily wire around it. It’s not the end of the world and the failure mode is rare to begin with.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Well anyone with a modicum of knowledge can either replace a switch or temporarily wire around it. It’s not the end of the world and the failure mode is rare to begin with.

It is easy to underestimate the difficulty of even simple repair jobs when sailing offshore, especially when shorthanded. Murphy dictates these failures will occur at the worst time.

Where feasible, redundant options for vital operations are the sensible way for electrical (and other) systems to be engineered.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

It is easy to underestimate the difficulty of even simple repair jobs when sailing offshore. Murphy dictates these failures will occur at the worst time.

Where feasible, redundant options for vital operations are the sensible way for electrical (and other) systems to be engineered.

Breakers don’t provide redundancy either. If it fails the circuit is disabled. So I don’t follow your logic here. Breakers are not good switches and are not rated so.

My next project is replacing my manual breakers with electronic ones but that panel won’t be ready till next year. Mine all have manual overrides

Failure mode risks really are in the eyes of the viewer. What might be a serious risk to you may be trivial to me. For example I know my way around every cable on my boat. Wiring faults take minutes to override or render safe. After my lightening strike I was able to bypass key areas and restart power generation in 30 minutes. Others however could find the same thing impossible
So it depends YMMV

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Breakers don’t provide redundancy either. If it fails the circuit is disabled. So I don’t follow your logic here.

Multiple breakers are needed. With seperate circuits if the circuit for the tricolour fails you can use the lower navigation lights. If the circuit for lower navigation lights fails you can use the tricolour. If both fail you can still use the anchor light, providing an all round white light. If the anchor light fails you can use the spreader or deck lights. Some of these options are not ideal, but much better than a boat without any external lights.

Combine these on a single circuit and multi position switch and you have created an unnecessary single failure point for all navigation lights.

This same logic applies to other systems. Especially for vital functions, designing some redundancy and reducing single points of failure (where possible) is sensible for a long distance cruising boat.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

With seperate circuits if the circuit for the tricolour fails you can use the lower navigation lights. If the circuit for lower navigation lights fails you can use the tricolour. If both fail you can still use the anchor light, providing an all round white light. If the anchor light fails you can use the spreader or deck lights. Some of these options are not ideal, but much better than a boat without any navigation lights.

Combine these on a single circuit and multi position switch and you have a single failure point for all navigation lights.

Sorry , you are reaching , firstly the use of mast head tricolours is unusual , certainly around here.

Secondly the actual chance of a switch alternating say between tricolour and anchor failing is small, lots of other single point failures , connectors , the wire itself , the bulb , etc. Exist. It’s rather ridiculous to just focus on one aspect and conveniently forget all the others.

Equally on the very rare chance my switch might fail , I can (a) replace it in minutes , (b) wire around it to activate any given circuit or (c) do without

In my view common switched functions should be assigned to proper switches. Breakers are designed as breakers. This is especially true of thermal breakers and DIN units , these latter ones are designed largely for domestic and light industrial markets and are not a great fit for boats. They tend to be hard to source in ratings under 10A and the switch operation life is poor as the target markets don’t habitually use them as switches.

In my view types like Carling electro hydraulic breakers are the best fit , but pricey especially in double pole variants. Used in conjunction with good quality crimped spade connectors , offer very durable and reliable systems. I have direct experience of DIN domestic units in boats and I had to remove them due to corrosion .

[Joli]

We're interested in making the move to digital switching. The idea of main power lines run down both sides of the hull and feeding a digital switch that can be controlled by a NMEA network is tempting. It would allow for wire reduction and a simpler system. With something like a bypass module added to the mix I don't really see the risk. The boat is already very integrated with NMEA 2000 tying everything together and we rely heavily on electronics to drive the boat in all conditions. Black boxes run much of the boat today.

Some items like windlasses and bow thrusters are wired directly to the batteries with fuses within 6 inches and breakers further down stream.

Anyway, we're exploring.