Life Raft Decisions

[Dockhead]

I have 2x 4 man Avon Ocean life rafts which were original to my boat. That means they are now over 20 years old.

I last serviced them in 2018 which means they are nearly 3 years out of date so I don't think I can let this go any longer. Avon no longer exists and these rafts apparently cannot be serviced in Europe. "Apparently" because I have so far gotten the same answer from probably a dozen potential service stations in Denmark, Sweden and Germany. I think they can be serviced in the UK but that's a royal PITA without sailing there because of rules on shipping gas cylinders.

They are fantastic rafts; I have always participated in and witnessed their servicing, and last time I saw them inflated they were in flawless perfect condition without any air loss over 24 hours. But -- they are 20 years old.

So maybe it's time to break down and replace them, or at least buy one new one.

What I'm thinking about is buying one 6-man, instead of 4-man raft which would accommodate the whole crew, keeping one 4-man Avon in reserve.

I have a dedicated life raft locker on my after deck and a 6 man raft in a canister should fit there.

I'm looking at these variants:

1. Seago Sea Master ISO 9650-1 raft. Cheapest, and looks well built with butyl rubber tubes. About £1000 in the UK.

2. Ocean Safety Regatta raft. Only a little more expensive than the Seago (about €1600 all in) and a better-regarded brand. PVC coated polyester tubes, lighter than others.

3. Viking RescYou Ocean. Made in Denmark and only about €2600 here. It's considerably cheaper in Denmark than it is elsewhere including Germany, despite the higher VAT rate here. Butyl rubber tubes, solid build, heavy.

All of these meet ISO 9650-1.

I'm not sure how long I will continue to be based in Denmark, but the Danish origin of the Viking is a really big plus -- easy to get it serviced, no issue with parts, no issue with warranty. It's supposed to be a premium raft but I'm not entirely sure there is a lot of reality behind that.

I was warned off of Seagos by the guy who always serviced my Avons, but they have a very loyal following and they have an 18 year (!) warranty. They are always very well reviewed in the British sailing press. Service is available in Europe.

I would be grateful for anyone's thoughts. Am I right to be giving up on the Avons at 20 years? Whenever I've had them out of their vacuum bags, I always thought to myself "they don't make 'em like they used to".


I wouldn't sail without a raft I thought I could depend on. In the cold waters where I sail, you'd be dead long before you got rescued if the boat went down (God forbid), even in calm weather. Also, my boat is UK registered, and above a certain length UK registered boats are legally required to carry life rafts.

[Baronkrak]

A 6-man may have an external kit.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Baronkrak

A 6-man may have an external kit.

Please explain what this means. I don't understand. External what?

[Tortuga's Lie]

By external kit, he may be referring to the survival rations/first aid/repair kit.

[Tsuru]

I had difficulty getting our Viking RescYou Offshore 4 person serviced on the USA West Coast. I finally lost confidence in the company and purchased another brand. This was the first service, so it kinda sucked.
It’s probably different in your location, but it’s worth checking.

[Ratbasher]

To put it into perspective, how happy would you be to be told your light aircraft was fitted with 20-year old parachutes that hadn't been fully checked in over 6 years - but they're an excellent brand. No longer made but an excellent brand all the same.

I think you're doing the right thing. My call would be to buy a brand that you can get serviced easily in whatever cruising grounds you sail in.

[CarlF]

Much as I liked Avon - 20 years is old enough. Rubber ages. Would you use 20 year old tires on a car?

I would either keep the Avon knowing it’s taking some risk or buy the Seago 6 —- and with the saved money buy cold water “Gumby” survival suits too. Too often people fail to make it into the liferaft - it flips, blows way, fails to inflate, or they are injured jumping from the boat. Even in your cold waters the Gumby suit gives you a reasonable chance to survive in the water if rescue is prompt. Which it usually is where you sail. It’s a good idea to attach a PLB to each suit.

[davil]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have 2x 4 man Avon Ocean life rafts which were original to my boat. That means they are now over 20 years old.

I last serviced them in 2018 which means they are nearly 3 years out of date so I don't think I can let this go any longer. Avon no longer exists and these rafts apparently cannot be serviced in Europe. "Apparently" because I have so far gotten the same answer from probably a dozen potential service stations in Denmark, Sweden and Germany. I think they can be serviced in the UK but that's a royal PITA without sailing there because of rules on shipping gas cylinders.

They are fantastic rafts; I have always participated in and witnessed their servicing, and last time I saw them inflated they were in flawless perfect condition without any air loss over 24 hours. But -- they are 20 years old.

So maybe it's time to break down and replace them, or at least buy one new one.

What I'm thinking about is buying one 6-man, instead of 4-man raft which would accommodate the whole crew, keeping one 4-man Avon in reserve.

I have a dedicated life raft locker on my after deck and a 6 man raft in a canister should fit there.

I'm looking at these variants:

1. Seago Sea Master ISO 9650-1 raft. Cheapest, and looks well built with butyl rubber tubes. About £1000 in the UK.

2. Ocean Safety Regatta raft. Only a little more expensive than the Seago (about €1600 all in) and a better-regarded brand. PVC coated polyester tubes, lighter than others.

3. Viking RescYou Ocean. Made in Denmark and only about €2600 here. It's considerably cheaper in Denmark than it is elsewhere including Germany, despite the higher VAT rate here. Butyl rubber tubes, solid build, heavy.

All of these meet ISO 9650-1.

I'm not sure how long I will continue to be based in Denmark, but the Danish origin of the Viking is a really big plus -- easy to get it serviced, no issue with parts, no issue with warranty. It's supposed to be a premium raft but I'm not entirely sure there is a lot of reality behind that.

I was warned off of Seagos by the guy who always serviced my Avons, but they have a very loyal following and they have an 18 year (!) warranty. They are always very well reviewed in the British sailing press. Service is available in Europe.

I would be grateful for anyone's thoughts. Am I right to be giving up on the Avons at 20 years? Whenever I've had them out of their vacuum bags, I always thought to myself "they don't make 'em like they used to".


I wouldn't sail without a raft I thought I could depend on. In the cold waters where I sail, you'd be dead long before you got rescued if the boat went down (God forbid), even in calm weather. Also, my boat is UK registered, and above a certain length UK registered boats are legally required to carry life rafts.

======================================

for what is worth

I have Viking

Viking is the brand used by the local ferries

When my daughter visited Norway, pics on their ferries showed Viking

Figure, if they are good for them should be good for me.

Serviced it once already

Sits permanently installed on the foredeck.

[more]

https://www.seacurity.de/en/products...44815123480882
3 year service interval after 9 year reow in garbage
here pick one
https://www.nauticexpo.com/boat-manu...7a5a4453513d3d


also sego
https://www.svb24.com/en/seago-sea-m...so-9650-1.html

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

........
I would be grateful for anyone's thoughts. Am I right to be giving up on the Avons at 20 years? Whenever I've had them out of their vacuum bags, I always thought to myself "they don't make 'em like they used to".
......

I dunno about the 20 years but at some time, the material will fail.

A cautionary tale - For many decades I had a pair of RFD inflatable lifejackets; their construction and fabric were excellent. I serviced them on schedule and they never showed any deterioration, none whatsoever. Due to their age, I started checking them every year. In a 12 month period (between checks) they went from perfect to useless. The previous check, they looked the same and held pressure for well over 24 hours. The next check, they would not hold pressure for 2 hours. The seams etc were fine, the material simply became porous. There had been no change in storage etc, they just failed (both of them). It was sobering moment. By then they may have been around 20 plus years old. I had kind of thought they were going to last 'forever'.

If a new life raft fails (and you live to tell the tale), you will have some claim but you will be never able to claim against an obsolete product.

[Letterkenny]

Originally Posted by Tsuru

I had difficulty getting our Viking RescYou Offshore 4 person serviced on the USA West Coast. I finally lost confidence in the company and purchased another brand. This was the first service, so it kinda sucked.
It’s probably different in your location, but it’s worth checking.

What did you get?

[bergius]

Originally Posted by CarlF

and with the saved money buy cold water “Gumby” survival suits too. Too often people fail to make it into the liferaft - it flips, blows way, fails to inflate, or they are injured jumping from the boat. Even in your cold waters the Gumby suit gives you a reasonable chance to survive in the water if rescue is prompt. Which it usually is where you sail. It’s a good idea to attach a PLB to each suit.

That's what we did for Baltic. No liferaft, and instead a survival suit for each crew member, and then a floating hand-VHF with DSC distress. You're never very far from other vessels there, but the water can be cold, especially in the early season.

Now that we're off towards the west, we added a four person SeaGo liferaft and an EPIRB. The life raft is stored in the quarter berth, and the survival suits in a cockpit locker. Compromises you have to make on a small boat.

Obviously no experience with whether this strategy works, and also hoping never to gain that experience. The only friend who has had to abandon ship did so at night without any flotation devices (life rafts were locked) before the boat exploded. Luckily tropical waters and a fishing vessel that came to rescue reasonably quickly.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I dunno about the 20 years but at some time, the material will fail.

A cautionary tale - For many decades I had a pair of RFD inflatable lifejackets; their construction and fabric were excellent. I serviced them on schedule and they never showed any deterioration, none whatsoever. Due to their age, I started checking them every year. In a 12 month period (between checks) they went from perfect to useless. The previous check, they looked the same and held pressure for well over 24 hours. The next check, they would not hold pressure for 2 hours. The seams etc were fine, the material simply became porous. There had been no change in storage etc, they just failed (both of them). It was sobering moment. By then they may have been around 20 plus years old. I had kind of thought they were going to last 'forever'. . .

That's kind of what I'm worried about.

Life rafts, I was told by the guys who used to service mine, almost always fail at the seams. Which means they are good and hold air until suddenly they don't. Somewhat mitigated by having two rafts, as I do, but they are the same age and brand!

All right, here's a different question:

If I do buy a new one, what should I do with the old one?

1. Flog it on E-Bay for whatever I can get.


2. Use it for practice. Get my crew together, sail out and heave to somewhere, throw it out in the water, practice boarding it in lively sea conditions.

I've always thought that practice in realistic conditions was invaluable for any safety procedure.

When we went to the Arctic, we had a half day of MOB practice -- with every crew member going into the ice-cold water and getting hauled out. In their dry suits. It was eye-opening how hard it is to get someone out of the water; no amount of theory really prepares you for it.

I guess it must be the same with deploying and boarding life rafts. The RYA do sea safety courses where they have you do it in a swimming pool, but that's surely not nearly the same as doing it at sea, in cold water, with a sea running.

So maybe that would be a worthwhile use for the good old raft.

After which it would have to be scrapped, since inflation with the CO2 cylinder degrades the material.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by bergius

That's what we did for Baltic. No liferaft, and instead a survival suit for each crew member, and then a floating hand-VHF with DSC distress. You're never very far from other vessels there, but the water can be cold, especially in the early season.

Now that we're off towards the west, we added a four person SeaGo liferaft and an EPIRB. The life raft is stored in the quarter berth, and the survival suits in a cockpit locker. Compromises you have to make on a small boat.

Obviously no experience with whether this strategy works, and also hoping never to gain that experience. The only friend who has had to abandon ship did so at night without any flotation devices (life rafts were locked) before the boat exploded. Luckily tropical waters and a fishing vessel that came to rescue reasonably quickly.

You've got a raft now, so this comment is not really for you.

But I would NEVER sail the Baltic without a life raft. The water can be ice cold and out of the shipping lanes, the Baltic can be as empty as any ocean I've ever been in. It's not rare in the Baltic to sail for 24 hours without seeing another vessel of any kind (something which is impossible in the North Sea, for example).

So you will often -- I guess, usually -- be out of range for anyone to pick up the DSC call from a handheld less than a meter from the water surface.

Sailing the Baltic, I carry on my person at all times both a MOB1 DSC/AIS man overboard beacon, AND a ResQLink PLB.

If, God forbid, I had to abandon in the Baltic, I would pop the EPIRB and do my best to get off a proper Mayday on the ship's VHF, if there were time for that. The PLB is for a case like, God forbid, a catastrophic explosion or sudden fire which made it impossible to get the grab bag which has the EPIRB in it.

One of my rafts is in a special locker on the after deck of my boat. I keep meaning all these years to install a hydrostatic release so it will float free automatically in case, God forbid, the boat went down suddenly. The locker is designed for that but for some reason was never installed.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

........
All right, here's a different question:

If I do buy a new one, what should I do with the old one?

1. Flog it on E-Bay for whatever I can get.


2. Use it for practice. Get my crew together, sail out and heave to somewhere, throw it out in the water, practice boarding it in lively sea conditions.

I've always thought that practice in realistic conditions was invaluable for any safety procedure.
........

A purely personal opinion here - I'd do #2, for the reasons you state.

I have undertaken various marine safety courses for work that have included boarding life rafts (in calm water). Manoeuvring towards and entering a life raft while wearing a PFD was amazingly difficult even in calm water. Any practice must be good thing. You could keep one of them not inflated by the CO2 canister, inflate with some kind of air pump and use it for on-going training. The value of the training aspects would far outweigh the residual asset value of the old rafts (IMO). Plus I would be unwilling to sell a safety item that I wasn't happy to trust/use myself.

Lady Luck favours those who have prepared properly