AGM Battery Equalization

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

No, wasn't what I meant, but thanks for that link. Haven't felt the need to fool with it... but for my earlier comment, it just hadn't occurred to me they wouldn't include that kind of procedure, if recommended, in the "owner's manual" document.

As should be clear by now, lots of canonical information is kept apart from the standard user documentation, or even not put in writing where its easil found.

That's why so often the answer is (or should be) "call the maker".

The marketing department would not want prospective buyers to get overwhelmed by these advanced topics and decide to buy the inferior brand based on "these appear much easier to care for".

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Pete7

John, What is this statement based upon please and is there any evidence to support it, or is it just a personal experience from using these batteries?

So the last three posts have now asked questions which you really need to answer since people are going to read these threads and base purchasing decisions with their hard earned money on what you have said. We look forward to your replies.

Peter

Say it often, say it with gusto, use lots of acronyms for academic superiority and have zero marine experience with the products, that's the 'MO'.

[a64pilot]

I have conditioned Lifelines and have regained capacity in doing so.

However what’s tough is Lifeline says don’t condition unless you have noticed reduced capacity. So how do you do that? Graph every days total AH used vs voltage?

What I do is compare what my Smart Gauge says my remaining capacity is first thing in the morning, when the Smart Gauges reported SOC begins to drop when compared to what my Amp counter battery monitors are saying, then I condition charge. This may be three months or so. Interestingly I sat since last July here in a Marina on shore power continually on float, and did a battery cycle test overnight and found that I had lost some capacity, condition charged them and regained I believe the 5% or so that I had lost.

Maybe I came in having lost the 5% though, from now on I’ll condition charge at the beginning of a Marina stay as a procedure.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Lots of related thread drift and individual statements and heresy. But not a lot of actual manufacturer info to backup stuff.

Well, this is a forum

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Given how many are posting they have the Lifelines and haven't ever done an EQ, i wonder if it really just comes down to Lifeline saying “what the heck you get to that point what is there to lose”.

I suspect the answer is yes. That and a bit of marketing magic.

I can picture the salesguy in a meeting now. "My customer's are old school and coming from years of FLA experience. I can't tell them they can't equalize our batteries". To which the marketing folks notice that if they list a 'feature' that nobody else has, it will be something they can point too for comparison purposes". ("Our amps go to 11")

In all honestly, I believe the reason I get decent battery life is because I oversize my battery bank. I then dip down very little before recharging. I doubt I ever go below 90% capacity. I run a generator every twelve hours to recharge batteries when I'm not tied to shore power. I think that has a lot more to do with longevity than equalization or even type.

[Exile]

I believe I've regained capacity from reconditioning Lifeline's as well, but can't say if it's actually increased their overall lifespan. Early on I called Lifeline up, told whoever answered that John61 had sent me, and I was immediately transferred to a tech who I now know on a first-name basis.

Only kidding, but the tech I did talk to recommended a small, portable 20A battery charger made by CTEK that does conditioning charges automatically. In other words, it will only cycle through a conditioning charge as needed rather than based on a set no. of hours. (Also nice to have stowed as a backup charger). So rather than conditioning (Lifeline's terminology & nothing "canonical" ) for a set number of hours, this unit will only remain in conditioning mode based on the amount of time the batteries actually need. Even though I tried to apply my very best grokking skills (), I still have no idea how it senses this (and don't care), but I have noticed it taking much longer to do its thing when my batts. have clearly aged & lost some capacity. I have also cross-checked with my meter the amount of voltage it's applying and it seems dead on with what the manual specifies (based on temps).

[a64pilot]

If you have met and talked to the Godber’s, some of Concorde’s Engineers etc. I can tell you for sure they didn’t just come up with Conditioning as a marketing ploy, to start with if it were marketing they would have stayed with the generally accepted and recognized term of equalizing.

For whatever it’s worth if you buy any aircraft battery, legally as the FAA Certified mechanic installing the battery, you must perform a capacity check to ensure it has the required reserve capacity to operate the Nav and Comm radios to successfully get an aircraft safely on the ground should the alternator quit working.
EXCEPT a Concorde battery, every single one has been capacity checked by the manufacturer prior to being shipped.
I seriously doubt they are the type of company to make stuff up to satisfy the marketing dept.
However if you have any questions, give them a call, a real person who knows something about batteries will answer at their factory, not a call center.

So call them and ask if Conditioning is real or is it just a shot in the dark that’s not likely to do anything.

[Thank you dad]

I am 10 or 11 years into a battery bank made of 4-g31 lifeline AGMS. The batteries are going VERY strong with 95% of the charging coming from alternator and my 200 watt solar system. I would highly recommend lifeline batteries and think they are worth every penny. Though i may go to the carbon foam AGMS next time around, i could get the same usable capacity with 1 less battery or another more power for the same weight and size without having to go to lithium.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Exile

the tech I did talk to recommended a small, portable 20A battery charger made by CTEK that does conditioning charges automatically.

Excellent, they make **great** chargers, including a B2B with basic SC included.

They don't tend to get used in a marine context much, likely because (afaik) they don't make high-current units.

But they are well designed, high build quality, very precise and last forever.

The fact that Concorde TS reco'd their automated equalizing routine is **very** exciting, I'm going to test that see if I can find out what its algorithm is.

The low amp rate doesn't matter, since your regular setup has the bank at 100% Full before you hook it up, acceptance rate will be pretty low.

Excellent for while a boat's sitting on shore power too as a "maintainer" if the House bank's not getting drawn down.

Thanks much appreciated!

_____
Might seem unrelated, but this reminds me of my (Tecmate) Optimate TM-291 charger, another excellent quality and very useful unit from the automotive world.

Designed for those tiny LFP starter batts, so low amps.

Usually I'd never use a 14+V charger, but as a "finish" charger on even a large 4S bank it's superb,

ends up **balancing** the four cells / groups just perfectly **without** any BMS or balance lead connections, just the pack-level power pair.

Crazy I know, and no idea how it does it, functionally just a "black box",

apparently to do with how it pulses, rather than just sitting at a static absorb voltage, oscillating between 14V and a bit higher, maybe 14.5? The lower-volt cells at lower resistance accept more energy per pulse or something.

In any case it works!

------
Their TM-500 is a 2A DCDC, can be used for part of that "hybrid LFP / lead" setup I mentioned above.

Sorry OT I know, but as Automatic Jack says, "the street finds its own uses for things"

http://m.quickmeme.com/img/89/896a72...4b524515e3.jpg

[Exile]

Originally Posted by john61ct

> There's no way to prevent sulfation

That statement is 100% false. "Sulfation" is not a cut and dry, black and white state change, but a variable gradual "greyscale" condition.

Which is why you shouldn't have truncated the rest of my comment. Here it is in full: "There's no way to prevent sulfation, only to try and minimize it."

If you are equalizing regularly, you are catching the hardening process in the early stages when the lead sulfate layer is still pretty amorphous, softer and smaller sized crystals, and thus easier to break up the layer depositing on the negative plates.

Yes, I've read this many times before from actual experts. I suspect most of us who have been frequenting these battery threads for years have too.

In other words that early stage is **more reversible**.

Confusing. Temporarily "reversible" perhaps, but it's only (at best) buying you some more time (maybe). A rather compelling but still anecdotal example of great success using Lifeline's conditioning protocols was reported by the owners of Morgan's Cloud (Attainable Adventure Cruising website) who roasted their first set of Lifeline's after only one year, but then got 5 years from their second set. These are full-time liveaboards who are away from the dock & shore power a lot, and have high battery consumption needs.

If the chronic PSOC continues without any treatment, the crystalline structures grow & stabilize into a thicker tougher barrier.

That is what **permanently** reduces the battery’s exposed active material, and thus cripples its performance.

Righto. Which is why all LA batteries have a finite lifespan. I think we all get that one. It's not an "if" but a "when." Which is why your characterizations are misleading if not misplaced.

Raising the battery temperature to 55+°C while equalizing also helps dissolve the deposits while they are still amorphous.

Someone else already tried but I'm not going to touch this one. Just follow the manual.

If you have a relatively accurate SoC guesstimation meter, track your "voltage under load vs SoC mapping" over time.

To each their own, but as a boatowner I usually have more pressing matters to accomplish while onboard.

When (ideally before) you see voltage sag start worsening, that is a sign you should be increasing the frequency of your equalization cycles.

As a practical matter, it's really quite a bit simpler to notice when your batteries are starting to show signs of aging.

And yes, not everyone can, most don't care enough, just replace your bank more frequntly I know I know, just putting the info out there, it's your rig, do what you like with it, just inform your choices not (fail to) act out of ignorance.

No guarantees of increased lifespan. A working knowledge of the protocols in a mfg.'s manual and moderate diligence will usually suffice. There are plenty of other onboard systems that actually require more hands-on attention than battery banks. Most serious boatowners/cruisers I know don't generally act out of ignorance but there are always exceptions.

My apologies for not communicating clearly enough.

Not just to you, but for all members, feel free to ask specific questions (maybe after googling) and

I'll be happy to clarify any terms or points you're not grokking.

Better yet, you could try more attribution and less absolutism. More staying on topic and less grokking. More measured responses and less use of acronyms, poor grammar, and missing punctuation. Either that or more candid responses to repeated requests to reveal your background & credentials when participating so frequently in technical threads. Not only are boatowners coming to these CF threads for sound advice when contemplating large expenditures, but are often DIY'ers trying to deal with potentially dangerous onboard systems if not handled properly. For e.g., I don't think anyone really wants someone misinterpreting your comments when it comes to temperature recommendations during battery conditioning/equalizing cycles, no matter how correctly you might have intended them.

[john61ct]

whhops wrong thread

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have conditioned Lifelines and have regained capacity in doing so.

However what’s tough is Lifeline says don’t condition unless you have noticed reduced capacity. So how do you do that? Graph every days total AH used vs voltage?

What I do is compare what my Smart Gauge says my remaining capacity is first thing in the morning, when the Smart Gauges reported SOC begins to drop when compared to what my Amp counter battery monitors are saying, then I condition charge. This may be three months or so. Interestingly I sat since last July here in a Marina on shore power continually on float, and did a battery cycle test overnight and found that I had lost some capacity, condition charged them and regained I believe the 5% or so that I had lost.

Maybe I came in having lost the 5% though, from now on I’ll condition charge at the beginning of a Marina stay as a procedure.

Yes, determining the capacity of one's house batteries is difficult and AFAIK, there is no easy way. At the best there are some less than perfect ways and one has to take a way that works for one's self.

I am firmly of the view the only proper way is to do a full discharge test under controlled conditions.

Ensure the battery is fully charged.
Apply a constant current load to the battery at the C rate that the battery is suitable for (i.e. 1 hour or 10 hours or 20 hours etc.)
Pick an end point voltage (normally 10V or 10.5V for a 12V battery)i.e. 0% SOC.
Note the time taken to reach the end point (0% SOC).
Do the maths and you have the real capacity for that battery (at the ambient temperature when the test is done).

Of course, this uses up one cycle of the total life cycles left.

I understand why this difficult for a cruiser to do but it remains AFAIK, the only true way to measure capacity.

Getting a constant current discharge is quite difficult to achieve without specialised equipment not usually available to the average cruiser.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Shrew

In all honestly, I believe the reason I get decent battery life is because I oversize my battery bank. I then dip down very little before recharging. I doubt I ever go below 90% capacity. I run a generator every twelve hours to recharge batteries when I'm not tied to shore power. I think that has a lot more to do with longevity than equalization or even type.

Hoping for the same here.
Day 1 all fridges running day/night down to 82%
Day 2 big fridge off at night* down to 92%
Solar has it back at 100% by lunchtime


* Our 15 year old Samsung 560 litre fridge/freezer has a well documented issue with freezing and getting warm. Have found turning off every 2nd night works and cheaper than a new fridge.

[justus_d]

Hi
Normally I do not respond to discussions but the problem of building lead sulfate in the battery is common to all lead batteries, be it the car or a boat. There is a good solution on the page
https://www.novitec.de/index.php/meg...n-laden-pulsen. We do not need to discuss the question why the megapulse is not mentioned by any battery manufacturer. The only advice is try and build your own experience.
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[Steve DAntonio]

An article on the subject of conditioning charge for Lifeline AGMs
https://www.proboat.com/2016/10/solving-sulfation/

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio

An article on the subject of conditioning charge for Lifeline AGMs
https://www.proboat.com/2016/10/solving-sulfation/

I think your understanding of sulfation in this article that you wrote is confused at best and inaccurate at worst.

'Sulfation' happens every time a battery discharges as part of the normal chemical process when Lead Sulfate crystals are formed on the plates. When a battery is fully charged these crystals are converted back to Lead Oxide and Sulphuric Acid. Permanent sulfation happens when these Lead Sulfate crystals are left to harden too long before the battery is fully charged. Equalization at this stage may clear some of these crystals but many will be left on the plates causing a permanent reduction in the banks capacity.

How long is 'too long' has not been clearly answered on these forums but Justin Godber of Lifeline has suggested 'too long' maybe less than a week.

Equalization is always worth trying but may not completely cure the problem of permanent sulfation.