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Old 07-01-2020, 07:23   #31
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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A related question - wouldn't Agm and gel batteries sulfate just like a fla battery? Nothing about the chemical between acid and lead has change, only the carrier for the acid. Or has it

Just from reading, I'd guess AGMs and gels both sulfate just as FLAs do.

Hence maybe the common AGM criticism from cruisers who are seldom at a dock, seldom have shorepower, may or may not have solar or sufficient solar. Given that many folks commonly assume most AGMs can't be equalized, sulfation caused by insufficient recharging after each cycle is said to be a reason to not use AGMs. (As you've seen, Lifelines -- at least -- offer a workaround for that.)

Anyway, probably Maine Sail's writing applies... I think I've seen he's addressed AGMs and sulfation on his site...

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Old 07-01-2020, 07:41   #32
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

Yes many that do prefer AGM swear Lifeline's the only way to go, specifically because they are the only ones that do allow equalizing.

But really it is best viewed as a **preventative** measure, the worse PSOC then more frequently (if possible).

When Calder & MS did their Firefly testing, equalizing did not recover much capacity if any, I thin Northstar came out best of the three, but none close to Firefly's performance.
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Old 07-01-2020, 08:42   #33
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

All lead acid batteries sulphate I believe.
I don’t know how firefly deals with sulphation.

AGM’s are excellent for cars, can’t leak acid and don’t often off gas. Give good cranking power and as they should never be deeply cycled at all, sulphation shouldn’t be as much of an issue.

But we aren’t driving cars, some of us are cycling daily and deeply, many are not, not all cruisers anchor out, many run almost every day and travel to the next marina, those that do that may have a different view of AGM’s.

What is curious to me is no one or maybe very few use batteries meant for Solar power banks, by that I mean the big boys.
I’ve been considering them myself, I would have to use a storage locker to do it, but maybe it’s worth it? Either Trojan is lying or some have some real long cycle lives, even their AGM.
https://www.trojanbattery.com/market...ble-energy-re/
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Old 07-01-2020, 08:51   #34
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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What is curious to me is no one or maybe very few use batteries meant for Solar power banks, by that I mean the big boys.
I’ve been considering them myself, I would have to use a storage locker to do it, but maybe it’s worth it? Either Trojan is lying or some have some real long cycle lives, even their AGM.
https://www.trojanbattery.com/market...ble-energy-re/
I followed that link and then the links for the buzz words in it. As someone involved is sales and marketing a long time I can pretty positively say that what they say is true. But that it is trying to make something pretty standard, which is used pretty much in most of their batteries, sound "special" by making up a catchy term.
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:16   #35
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

The RE lines do last much longer, but you pay accordingly.

The huge 2V cells might not withstand bouncing around so much?
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:44   #36
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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I found that Trojan specifically says not to equalize agm and cells. Still no one has said wherher others address it at other than Lifeline.

A related question - wouldn't Agm and gel batteries sulfate just like a fla battery? Nothing about the chemical between acid and lead has change, only the carrier for the acid. Or has it
Like I said above the Northstar factory gave me an equalization protocol for their AGMs. I asked Rolls about equalization on their AGMs and they said no. My Rolls AGMs are 9 years old and haven't needed it so far.
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:06   #37
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

Lifeline batteries are designed specifically to be equalized.

Odyssey and Northstar can be*"reconditioned", basically similar to Firefly's "capacity restore" but none are an actual equalization charge **at high voltage**.

Again, might be useful as a regular maintenance to counteract ongoing PSOC abuse, prevent / slow down sulfation, get a bit longer life, but no magical resuscitation is going on.
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:15   #38
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

When the Lifeline AGM batteries were first marketed to the marine market they did not have a published or recommended equalization procedure for end users. After suffering numerous failures after they came up with the equalization recommendations.
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:25   #39
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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Like I said above the Northstar factory gave me an equalization protocol for their AGMs. I asked Rolls about equalization on their AGMs and they said no. My Rolls AGMs are 9 years old and haven't needed it so far.
Sorry, “no one” was a poor word choice due to my CRAFT. What voltage did Northstar say you can use? The Lifeline procedure i read said 15.5-16.2, which i find to be a world away from each in this case.

So i guess the question remains - what is physically different that allows Lifeline to equalize? It is hard for me to believe that Rolls and Trojan agm are so physically weaker than Lifeline, and i guess Northstar now
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Old 07-01-2020, 11:00   #40
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

"Physically weaker" is not the point.

The engineers qualified to design these batteries, starting with Enersys, take into account the chemicals and electrolyte, lots of materials science in the the glass mat construction, plate thickness & spacings, valve design etc etc.

So designing for equalization as opposed to not, involves a lot of factors rather than "strength".

I doubt those that could answer the question could make us fully understand, and all of it is proprietary information anyway.

And Deka and Trojan AGM aren't really great,

Full River / Rolls-labelled either, hate to say,

the main four discussed here are really the ones that lead the field in quality, at least in the NA market.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:20   #41
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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I did, and addressed that issue right there

> yes FLA will last longer and cost less per Ah than AGM, both per-year and up front.

> but AGM does have advantages **for some use cases** that make the higher cost and shorter life worthwhile.

But of course that is OT here.

Not my experience.

Here in Australia the trojan fla is quit a bit more expensive (+50%) than what I paid for agm.
While it was a Chinese brand it was recommended and supplied by one of the larger Victron dealers here.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:33   #42
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

Maybe this will help clarify:

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
I don't have AGMs so am just asking, so don't go crazy.

I've read many times here that only Lifeline AGM batteries can be equalized charged.

1 - Does their literature acturally say this? I assume it does, but does it?
2 - Do other AGM manufacturers acturally say that their batteries can NOT be equalized? Or is it that they just don't say they can?
3 - What's the physical difference in construction between the various AGM batteries of same size?

Please provide links and not just hearsay.
https://lifelinebatteries.com/wp-con...al-5-06-19.pdf

1 - Yes, but only "when the battery is showing symptoms of capacity loss due to extended time in a partial or low state of charge condition." Lifeline Manual § 5.5 (p. 21).

2 - Dunno, but based on reading through the thread apparently some do and some don't. AFAIK, however, Lifeline is the only deep cycle AGM mfg. who's batteries are designed to be conditioned/equalized in the event of capacity loss. According to their manual and other literature I've read, this is a result of a proprietary valve design which is able to more effectively recombine some of the otherwise lost (and not replaceable) electrolyte. (Just reporting what I've read from the mfg. and not personally vouching for any of it).

3 - The specifics of a comparo btwn LL and other AGMs are listed in § 3.3 of the manual (p.12). The manual also does comparos with gels (3.2) & FLAs (3.1).

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
I found that Trojan specifically says not to equalize agm and cells. Still no one has said wherher others address it at other than Lifeline.

A related question - wouldn't Agm and gel batteries sulfate just like a fla battery? Nothing about the chemical between acid and lead has change, only the carrier for the acid. Or has it
My understanding re: the problem with equalizing more conventional(?) AGMs like Trojan is they gas off electrolyte which is not replaceable. I suspect (but don't know for sure) this is why some mfgs. advise not to equalize. Could also have to do with the sturdiness of the construction to contain the gasses in the event of bulging or worse.

I'm pretty sure all lead-acid batts. sulfate, whether they are flooded, AGM, Gel, or "FLA Sealed". Even Firefly. Whether they sulfate in equal amounts seems debatable, with the exception of Firefly which seem to be exceptionally resistant. There was a recent thread on this but (as usual) it only produced anecdotal information, only one actual "test", and thus no definitive evidence. AGMs do have a rep for sulfating faster when not recharged to 100% with some frequency, but LL's designed-in ability to condition/equalize periodically is "supposed" to help offset this. Hard to form concrete conclusions given all the usage variables, but I'm not surprised some power boat owners get longer life given their use of alternator charging anytime they're underway. I got 9 years from my last set of LLs but I was plugged into shore power a lot and conditioned/equalized every few months.

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Sorry, “no one” was a poor word choice due to my CRAFT. What voltage did Northstar say you can use? The Lifeline procedure i read said 15.5-16.2, which i find to be a world away from each in this case.

So i guess the question remains - what is physically different that allows Lifeline to equalize? It is hard for me to believe that Rolls and Trojan agm are so physically weaker than Lifeline, and i guess Northstar now
Lifeline says 15.58v @70ºF. There's a complete chart on p. 20 of the manual.

As stated, I'm pretty sure it's mostly the valve technology that allows LL to expressly recommend conditioning without gassing off too much of the electrolyte. They also may be built sturdier to safely handle potential bulging, etc., but that could be more of a guess on my part than a fact.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:56   #43
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

And this maybe help confuse:

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Have not read the thread.

Yes of course Lifeline details their equalization specs in their documentation, easily found in a few seconds on Google.

Since the other (quality deep cycling) AGM makers stopped advising true equalization

meaning higher voltage protocols

they have published "conditioning" procedures that are touted as recovering capacity from PSOC abuse

But afaic of limited use, and don't count as equalizing.

GIYF to learn the specifics for a given vendor, or as with the 0.005C thread, just contact their excellent tech support staff, who will give much more information - and no less canonical - than what is published in writing.
Barely decipherable, except maybe unnecessarily confusing conditioning & equalizing. See p. 21 of the Lifeline manual:

NOTE: Some chargers use the term Equalizing Charge instead of Conditioning Charge. An Equalizing Charge is generally applied to flooded lead acid batteries that are susceptible to acid stratification. However, an Equalizing Charge may be used to provide a Conditioning Charge for Lifeline® batteries as described below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
And yes FLA will last longer and cost less per Ah, both per-year and up front.

AGM does have advantages for some use cases that make the higher cost / shorter life worth while.

But of course OT here.
Off-topic indeed. Just like almost every battery thread where an OP is not asking anything about a cost/ah comparo btwn battery types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Yes many that do prefer AGM swear Lifeline's the only way to go, specifically because they are the only ones that do allow equalizing.

But really it is best viewed as a **preventative** measure, the worse PSOC then more frequently (if possible).

When Calder & MS did their Firefly testing, equalizing did not recover much capacity if any, I thin Northstar came out best of the three, but none close to Firefly's performance.
Did this testing do a conditioning/equalizing on the Lifeline? I don't recall.

Calling it a "preventative" measure is also confusing. There's no way to prevent sulfation, only to try and minimize it. Conditioning/equalizing can help by removing some of it as batteries age & capacity inevitably decreases. There is plenty of anecdotal information that supports longer life when doing regular conditioning with Lifelines (see, e.g. Morgan's Cloud) and of course FLAs, but also apparently a dearth of more definitive evidence. Too many usage variables perhaps.
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:20   #44
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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Odyssey and Northstar can be*"reconditioned", basically similar to Firefly's "capacity restore" but none are an actual equalization charge **at high voltage**.
Earlier, I had just done a quick keyword search through the Odyssey manual for "equalize" -- no occurrences. I just did another search for "recondition" and there aren't any hits on that either. Haven't seen instructions for reconditioning Odyssey batteries...

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Old 08-01-2020, 06:34   #45
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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And Deka and Trojan AGM aren't really great,

Full River / Rolls-labelled either, hate to say,

the main four discussed here are really the ones that lead the field in quality, at least in the NA market.
John, What is this statement based upon please and is there any evidence to support it, or is it just a personal experience from using these batteries?

So the last three posts have now asked questions which you really need to answer since people are going to read these threads and base purchasing decisions with their hard earned money on what you have said. We look forward to your replies.

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