400: Lagoon 400

[paulrack]

Hi Don

Have a great trip, I hope you have good winds, would love to hear about it when you get back.

Cheers
Paul

[paulrack]

I am very aware that this is supposed to be a lgoon 400 thread and wander whether maybe we should open a 40ft catowners thread as I am feeling we are losing the original intention of the thread. I am enjoying following other peoples experiences however, thoughts Garold/Peter/Hanafe and Don?

[peterp]

D&D are you going up to enter the Hamilton Island race week? For those that dont know Hamilton Island is in the Whitsunday Isles in Queensland, around seventy two tropical islands stunning part of the planet. Regards Peter

[hanafe]

Paulrack is right.
We are loosing the original intention of the threat. Let us go back to share thoughts and experiences on the L 400.
For that reason I add an experience or better a solved problem.
We have the electrical toilet option with the holding tanks of the 400. As the holding tanks are much higher positioned than the toilet bowls, grey water which is left in the pipes on the way to the holding tank is always flowing back to the bowl and filling it up slightly. In our region the seawater is not clean and so the water starts smelling very fast and the bowl gets grey and brown. We now added a simple valve at the hose next to the toilet bowl and the the water can not run back to the bowl anymore. See picture.
I never had this experience on manual toilets before and wondering if this is a general problem on electric toilets.

Regards HanaFe

[D&D]

Originally Posted by peterp

D&D are you going up to enter the Hamilton Island race week? For those that dont know Hamilton Island is in the Whitsunday Isles in Queensland, around seventy two tropical islands stunning part of the planet. Regards Peter

Hi Peter

No, I won't be racing. Kat is up there for the races, however, with charter passengers on board. I sailed Kat north (just before flying back for the Sydney Boat Show, where we met of course!) and she's been engaging in charter work up there (in that "stunning part of the planet" indeed!) ever since, culminating with the Race Week events. My trip will bring her back to her home port, Sydney.

[peterp]

Hello Paul, well, whilst this Lagoon 400 thread has been bigger than twitter, there is no reason someone with a similar craft can’t join in however my personnel thoughts are this discussion forum does cater for everyone, my enthusiasm for a one type thread is one can compare and learn from others with exactly the same craft, a one stop shop so to speak. Regards Peter

[peterp]

Hello Hanafe, I thank you for posting your thoughts and solution to a smelly problem, I think I will have that valve fitted to my L400 when it arrives day one as I have the quiet flush electric option. My understanding is that a smell can also be generated from the use of salt water for flushing, fresh water apparently solves this problem, clearly one would need a water maker if one went that way.
Regards Peter

[Garold]

We have the factory fitted electric toilets (seawater). And they function just fine (now that one of our rinse pumps had been repaired). For solids and liquids. No evidence so far of any 'backflow'.

But since we are talking toilets, we have to go into detail. So, if you have a sqeamish nature then maybe stop reading now...........

And once again, these are my own thoughts based on my own experiences only........

Even though we may be talking about the same boats (L400), they can be specced differently, and so the pipes may run differently (and so the toilets perform differently). We have an owners version with one toilet on starboard side, and two cabins, with one toilet on the port side. I am not sure Hanafe if your boat is the same configuration. But in my configuration, my pipes empty just fine.

However, always aware that I will be the bloke who has to unblock the toilets if anything gets stuck, I do frequently flush whilst using (during and after), making sure that lots of fresh seawater is flowing down those pipes and washing eveyrthing away. Embarrassment won't let me go into any further detail but hopefully it's clear that I think that blokes need more flushing! And there is probably a correlation between the size of the bloke and the amount and frequency of flushing.

Interestingly, (sad that I can open a line about toilets this way) we had electric freshwater Leesan toilets installed on our last boat (L380) and they were not as effective as the L400 electric toilets. On that boat we did have a bit of what Hanafe describes, and a bit of ineffective flushing (ie not always clearing the bowl fully). However, we used a lot of fresh water on those toilets and so when presented with the option of factory fit sea water toilets, we decided to try them. Our fresh water capacity is larger (x2?) than the L380 but nevertheless, we seem to last about 4 times as long between water top ups.

Hanafe is right to point out that the quality of sea water must have an impact on smells etc, but even in crystal clear water, there is still some smell from seawater toilets. In the UK there are many yachtie opinions on this, but on our L400 (so far) it not as bad as we thought it would be. However, since some people suggest that it is from microbes that grow in the inlet pipes, maybe it will get worse over time.

And that's my piece on toilets.

Cheers

Garold

[Garold]

Originally Posted by paulrack

I am very aware that this is supposed to be a lgoon 400 thread and wander whether maybe we should open a 40ft catowners thread as I am feeling we are losing the original intention of the thread. I am enjoying following other peoples experiences however, thoughts Garold/Peter/Hanafe and Don?

Paul

You need to stick around. Who'd want to miss the toilet discussion?

You may have different cat but I for one, like inclusivity.

And hey, at least you will have those moments when you think 'thank goodness I didn't buy one of those'.

No solution to your point but I shall continue to read your other threads about your boat, even though the technical content whizzes right over my head.

Cheers

Garold

[YOGAO]

Just a quick couple of points on toilets.

Consider check valves. We installed one-way valves (aka, check valves) between the pump and the holding tank. This eliminates the need for a valve similar to the one installed by hanafe.

Clogging of the "arteries". The most significant aspect on keeping your hoses/pipes clear is the reaction of urine and sea water. It creates a precipitate that leaves a deposit on the hose/pipe wall, as well as any other surface like pump diaphragms. There are two basic ways to reduce this crystalline build-up.

The easiest is to just pump more sea water through the system. This removes as much urine as possible and therefore reduces the precipitate. The problem though is you can fill up your holding tank(s) in a hurry.

The second step is to regularly feed your toilet white vinegar. The acidic content (strong enough to do the job, but mild enough not hurt the hoses/pipes), breaks down the precipitate. We give our heads a weekly to bi-monthly rinse for a 24-hr period. This step does not eliminate the need to periodically break down the pump and check valve assembly, but has reduced this "fun" task to a once or twice yearly process.

Fair Winds,
Mike

[bman]

Oh what a stinky problem

Someone mentioned using fresh water rather then salt water. I use a slight variation of this theme. Here on Vancouver island the salt water is clean however smell will still occur if the boat is left for a period of time. My dealer offered the following suggestion. Use the hand held shower to run fresh water directly into the head while you press the dry bowl switch. This will allow you to flush out the holding tanks and lines with clean water and prevent the lovely microbes in the salt water from doing there thing while the boat sits.

I will take a look at the check valve solution however it seems odd that if there were backfloe to the toilet that solids would not also appear. Could it be that the head is not being flushed for a long enough period to clear the line?

On that subjet how long does everyone flush for. I have noticed what appears to be a change in sound as I presume the content is discharged into the holding tank. Trying to explain that to guests is almost without hope. I tell guests to flush for 5 seconds-7 seconds.

Other issues - the fridge - does the drain connect to a throughhull? I have have a small amount of water collecting at the side of the cabinet below the light swithes at the entrance to the boat. This water is presumably coming from the drain in the fridge or from condensation on the compressor. It is not coming from any other place. I have looked carefully and can not see a drain. This could be a real problem. I am told other models of boats have a similiar design problem.

Next how on earth do you remove the fridge and/or freezer? It looks like the units are installed and the cabinet build around them? I am thinking about moving the freezer to free up storage space.

All the best

Bruce

[YOGAO]

One of the reasons a check valve can be effective is many boats have a pretty long run to get to the holding tank, plus you will always have a standing column of water. At a minimum, this column is the vertical distance between the exit from the bowl to the top entrance of the holding tank. A lot of pumping may get rid of all the solids, but as the solids get broken up in the pumping, it gets hard to get rid of all the solids (or smell) in the column.

Fair Winds,
Mike

[paulrack]

Thanks guys

Toilets, probably the one thing that makes most woman hate boats!

On my monohull I was permanently (or so it felt!) pumping other peoples stuff out the toilet. I went for a "man" size Tecnam toilet. it fills the bowl before business and completely empties it afterwards. So far so good and everyone can now deal with their own "business".

[paulrack]

What is the storm jib setup on the L400? I tried my setup when we commissioned the sails. It seems to work well, I tried to imagine it is blowing 50 kts when I am setting it up. Living in CT I will get that plus more many times a year so will report on how it actually works. Two night ago it was 60kts, I always wake up and hope I moored my boat properly!) Curious as to how the Lagoon 400's storm jib works.

[Garold]

Originally Posted by paulrack

What is the storm jib setup on the L400? I tried my setup when we commissioned the sails. It seems to work well, I tried to imagine it is blowing 50 kts when I am setting it up. Living in CT I will get that plus more many times a year so will report on how it actually works. Two night ago it was 60kts, I always wake up and hope I moored my boat properly!) Curious as to how the Lagoon 400's storm jib works.

I dont have a storm jib. Hope never to go out in that strength of wind.

And Paul, if you sail in 50-60 knot winds, you are a tough guy! You must let us know how you manage in these winds.

Cheers

Garold