400: Lagoon 400 vs Lipari 41?

[peter windsor]

Hi,Moving from a monohull to our first cat.We intend to live aboard and do some off shore sailing.Living in New Zealand,(near the end of the world) we do not have either the Lagoon 400 or the Lipari 41 in the country to see.We have done all our research so far on the net.How do these compare ?Our concerns are ;The hulls of the Lipari being darker than the lagoon with a feeling of crawling into a "rabbit hole" of a cabin.The Lagoon seems lighter and more of a normal "bedroom feel of an apartment "which apeals.We have been warned that the F P will sail much better ?Anybody been or going to both these?Any independant help would be most welcome thanks Peter

[asb]

Between 21-26 October, I will be seeing both models and hopefully arrange a test sail here in Istanbul Boat Show.

I have spoken with the both distributors and they told me Lagoon 400 and Lipari 41 will be on the show. I will let you know and also post some pictures and impressions.

28. International Istanbul BoatShow - Sea Landing - 21-26 October 2009 - MarinTurk Istanbul City Port

[asb]

I am also interested in those two models, so I'll add few words before the Boat Show. Lets see if I think the same after the show.

I have sailed different boats of both brands so I approx know their charecteristics. Traditionally Lagoons are more comfortable and have more space than FP, but slower than FP.

Can you have the best of both worlds? Yes, investing in a Genaker in a Lagoon solves most of the light wind sailing problems by adding 2+ knots. Providing Lagoon 400 is approx %10 cheaper than Lipari 41, the buyer has the margin to invest in a Genaker.

If you watch the intro video of Lagoon 400, you can see the %60+ of wind speed sailing. They have't said it in the video but it is naturally with a Gennaker. 5.0 knots speed at 7.6 knots wind, not bad.

YouTube - Lagoon 400

Also size is another matter. Check the following dimensions:

Lagoon 400 - 12m x 7.25m = 87 m2
Lipari 41 - 12m x 6.73m = 80.76 m2

So Lagoon is 6 m2 bigger than the Lipari. 6 m2 is a lot of space. Otherwise the two are very similar.

Both seems to be very nice boats. Lets see what I think after the Show.

[peter windsor]

Thank you,that would be really helpful.We are tending towards the Lagoon for the reasons you mention.From what i gather they have improved the performance.It looks quite roomy and i hope they have improved the storage in the galley.

[catking]

I was able to compare both yesterday at The Southampton boat show as I am in the market for a 40ft cat / 50ft mono.
My impressions were as follows:-
Both cats were very cheap / plastic feeling when compared to a similarly priced monohull.
The Lipari 41 was much more externally attractive.
The Lipari also had a full size external dining table where as the outside seating area was disappointing on the Lagoon & only had a coffee table.
The owners berth on both were very comparable, (I noticed no difference) & seemed huge compared to a comparable monohull.
The Saloon layout of the Lagoon was much better than the Lipari, particularly the galley (the Lipari had the worst galley of any yacht I had seen at the boat show & I would have found it impossible to use).
I didn't like the steering positions on either, although another cat, sorry I can't remember the name had a twin steering position at deck height which seemed much better.
Overall I was dissappointed with the choices on offer for Cats of that size, they both seemed to have major downsides to the design & a cheap feel, if a manufacturer combined the good points of both designs & improved the low quality feel the would clear up.

I hope that helps, although probably not.

[talus]

Ummm... cats do not compare to monohulls. Different design philosophy altogether.

[peter windsor]

yes already decided on cat and narrowed it between the two,Thanks for the feedback

[nikki-m]

I concur with the comparisons between the Lipari and the 400.
The Lipari is a way better looking boat than the 400, which is much boxier looking. The finish of the Lipari is also to a higher (less lower!!) standard than the 400.
The comment about the 400 only having a coffee table outside is incorrect. This coffee table and the inside saloon table are inter-changeable, so you can have either table in either position.
I read elsewhere a comment re the 400 asking what sort of designer could include a fridge and a separate freezer, but not allow for a cupboard to store any pans. It appears that this is easily solvable if the freezer is placed in the compartment under the steering seat, immediately outside the saloon door (this compartment is the same size as the cupboard space). This opens up a good size storage cupboard, and makes the galley much more usable. Lagoon offer this option on the 400.

I was able to take the 400 for a quick test-sail. Unfortunately this was on one of the only evenings when there was very little wind.
In around 9 knots of wind, the boat was moving at about 5.5 knots with the wind abeam (on the genneker), and about 4 knots when pointing at 40 deg off the wind (using the genoa). I was impressed with this performance in light winds. At the same time, the 620 could not move in the wind!.

The winches are far better placed in the Lipari, and you can get much closer to the top to grind them. However, the wheel is too close to the instrument panel, and will cause a serious viewing obstruction to a chart-plotter.
The wheel is better placed on the 400, and all intruments are visible. However, the winches and clutches are an arms-length away - too far to grind effectively. This is not so much of a problem if one takes the Comfort Pack option, as this includes electric winches. Having tried these, I now think there is no other way to sail!!!

Nikki

[asb]

Thanks Nikki for your detailed explanations.

It is nice to hear the improved light wind sailing of L400. Your observations are similar to the numbers in the above added video.

As for electric winches, I cannot think of a cat without them. They make the life very very comfortable for the skipper, and allow us sail single without any problems.

As 2/3 of the sailing is done under 12 knots of wind, for me also a gennaker is a must.

[yeloya]

Asb,

I don't know to whom you have spoke to but Lipari won't be in İst boat show, for sure. FP will have Orana 44 3 cabin version in Pendik. No idea for Lagoon 400..
I know that the Lipari that we ordered is the first one in Turkey and some more orders have been taken later. Our boat will be delivered late Jan 2010 and be ready for 2010 charter season in Marmaris. (4 cabins version)


Cheers

Yeloya

[capcook]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Asb,
I know that the Lipari that we ordered is the first one in Turkey and some more orders have been taken later. Our boat will be delivered late Jan 2010 and be ready for 2010 charter season in Marmaris. (4 cabins version)

Ahoy Yeloya... with any luck I will get to sail your fine waters near Turkey someday soon... ever since my last stay at the KP on the Boshorus, I have wanted to go back and spend some serious time... Istanbul is a very interesting place and I expect the rest of Turkey is as well..

I would be very interested in your thoughts as to the + / - of the Lipari vs the Oana ? other than the 4' in size. I would be getting the Owner versions... I did read that post about the Nordic folks whose Lapari had to be towed back to shore after breaking down... are they really built that poorly???

Sailing the Lipari 41 from Copenhagen to Oslo - rescued by SAR Sweeden | iamdreaming.org(beta)


Thanks !!

[paulrack]

Re Catkings comments. I cannot comment on the Lipari as I have not seen one yet. I was at the Cape Town boat show so I could compare a number of different manufacturers quality. The quality of the Matrix 450, Maverick 400, Knysna 480 and St Francis was streets ahead of lagoon. There was a new 440 on show. Some of the things I noticed on the lagoon, lots of exposed screws, bad joins in woodwork, cheap veneer with bad joints, lots of cutouts with no proper cappings in the wood, wood in the heads that will get wet from the shower, creaking floorboards, big gaps in the floorboards, rust on the tramp lacing already and rust coming out between stainless steel and the fibreglass. I would look at some of the new South African boats, there is no comparison. I have ordered a Maverick 400 and after seeing all the boats together at the show am very happy with my choice.

[nikki-m]

Originally Posted by capcook

... I did read that post about the Nordic folks whose Lapari had to be towed back to shore after breaking down... are they really built that poorly???

Talking to Lipari at the Southampton show, they said that the loss of the genoa caused the autopilot to over-correct. Sadly, no mechanical stops had been fitted, and no-one had thought to set any electrical stops on the pilot either!! It then appears (according to the Lipari folk, anyway) that some-one wrestled with the steering and tried to fight the autopilot to regain control. This had the unfortunate effect of breaking the cable-drive!!!! Of course, this could have occurred when the autopilot tried to drive past the physical end of its travel.

I understand that mechanical stops are now being fitted, and that the electrical stops will be programmed in. A bit late, methinks!!!!

[capcook]

Originally Posted by paulrack

I have ordered a Maverick 400 and after seeing all the boats together at the show am very happy with my choice.

About how much is that Maverick 400 ? Nice looking CAT !

[paulrack]

It was about R3.4m. That price is with a comprehensive inventory such as Fridge, freezer, C90w chartplotter, radar, 1000l water tanks, 800l diesel tanks, 30hp motors (volvo or Yanmar), vhf, stackpack, rollerfurler, stern shower, shore power, inverter, hot water launching, antifouling etc etc. I have quickly learned that you need to look at what is included when you look at prices.