450: Just signed on a new 450s!

[davedindubai]

Hi guys,
I thought I’d do a quick reply as your actually discussing our biggest issue on the crossing. I think all the 450’s arrived in St Lucia with a torn bag. It’s crap. A canoe would certainly help but I think you could get an aftermarket Ali frame made fairly cheaply.

The issue is that the aft end of the bag gets caught in the reef lines all the time. I think the bag is great for weekend use and what we were doing in the Med but for a big crossing it just doesn’t work.

You can’t store the bag (roll it up) and then be able to reef the main so to reef you need to unroll the bag first and in any sort of a wind, it just gets caught on everything.

You don’t really want to leave the bag out all the time as it will cost in performance and it’s just not attached strongly enough in the boom track or at either end of the boom. If you leave the bag out then when reefed, the wind catches the spare sail and bellows it onto the lazy jacks and rips the bag from the aft attachment at the boom. I repaired it a few times on the crossing and then gave up,

My solution was to remove the lazy jacks and tie them directly around the boom and then roll up the bag so it’s out of the way.

Other issues with the main are the reefing system. Friction is a big issue so I’ve taken out reef 3 completely which is far better. If you reef downwind, which sometimes we had to, then the tack will come in very tight but the crew will remain loose and there’s no middle sail tie to keep things tidy and tight to the boom.

I’m going to get a cringe installed in the center of the sail for reef 2 so that when I need to I can add in a sail tie around the bottom of the boom.

I’m using the reef 3 attachments on the sail with sail ties around the boom and keeping it as a storm sail for those really bad moments. I think reef 2 is good to 38knots off the top of my head. After that I don’t fancy having the main up at all but in an emergency it’s good to still have reef 3.

The other issue is the topping lift attachment point on the boom is in the wrong place and I need to get it moved. It chafes on the reefing lines on either tack.

The intermediate cars are good but even on our “s” with the lower boom I have to climb up the first 2 steps of the mast to pull down and secure the sail head when we’ve dropped the sail which is a lot of fun when you’re head into 4m seas and 35kt winds. If anyone has success removing them, please let me know.

Bez. YCS were great, you’re in safe hands with Thomas. In our experience he did everything he could to help us. We loaded up the boat completely before launch in the yard.

Getting Lagoon to change a single thing is almost impossible so get the bare minimum from them and do it after market. IMO.

Right guys, back to living the dream.

[Bean Counter]

Re pulling down the sail head. Use a long boat hook (with plastic end), grab a car or head of sail and pull it down. To secure the sail, slide the boat hook inside the bag near the mast up to the halyard, twist the boat hook and pull the halyard down inside the bag, attach to a snap hook on a line to the mast base and tighten halyard. I have never needed to use the steps on the mast for putting the head of the sail away.

To stop the ends of the bag catching the reefing lines tie some shock cord from the top end corners of the bag around the topping lift. When topping lift is tightened the shock cord tightens and stops the reefing line getting caught.

Where the sail bag is attached to the plastic slides, tie a piece of 3mm dyneema around the boom. Make sure second and third reef are tied on the correct side of the dyneema (ie directly under where they would be taught)

For friction issues use McLube on the rollers and cringles. We still keep the third reef in, and have used it. A lot of the friction is caused at the point where the reef lines feed into the front of the boom, it is worth freeing these up before hoisting, by pulling the reef lines through the clutches and if necessary pulling them loose at the goose neck.

[bez]

Originally Posted by c-reel

Remember, we are on "ZE" Lagoon 450s thread ...

The Park avenue boom may have some advantages on the 450F, but may not be as compelling for the 450s.

Check on sacre bleu:
https://toomeyfamily.wordpress.com/2...of-sacre-bleu/
They have one.

Several 450 Fly have this boom (Sacre Bleu, Clapotis and i believe this one (https://www.google.com/search?q=2015...dsy6x8HxAOxNM:)

. You can stand on it, and will certainly help furling the main. With the right set of lazy jack and bag/cover, it is potentially a good option, while quite expensive !

My apologies for offending protocol. We are quite new to this forum. Should I start a new thread?

[davedindubai]

Originally Posted by bez

My apologies for offending protocol. We are quite new to this forum. Should I start a new thread?

Not from my point of view, it’s good to expand the thread and improve the 450 however we can.

[davedindubai]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Re pulling down the sail head. Use a long boat hook (with plastic end), grab a car or head of sail and pull it down. To secure the sail, slide the boat hook inside the bag near the mast up to the halyard, twist the boat hook and pull the halyard down inside the bag, attach to a snap hook on a line to the mast base and tighten halyard. I have never needed to use the steps on the mast for putting the head of the sail away.

That’s pretty much how I do secure the main unless if the boat hook isn’t to hand.

To stop the ends of the bag catching the reefing lines tie some shock cord from the top end corners of the bag around the topping lift. When topping lift is tightened the shock cord tightens and stops the reefing line getting caught.

Will try this, once the bag is repaired.

Where the sail bag is attached to the plastic slides, tie a piece of 3mm dyneema around the boom. Make sure second and third reef are tied on the correct side of the dyneema (ie directly under where they would be taught)

Could you elaborate please, I don’t quite follow?

For friction issues use McLube on the rollers and cringles. We still keep the third reef in, and have used it. A lot of the friction is caused at the point where the reef lines feed into the front of the boom, it is worth freeing these up before hoisting, by pulling the reef lines through the clutches and if necessary pulling them loose at the goose neck.

We do this but it’s still not an ideal system.

How do people rig their preventers?
For us having the “S” with the helm and hard top bimini set on the stbd side there is no run fwd so we have to use the stbd aft cleat.
Port side is no issue and we use the port mid ships cleat.

I found that an wind over 13kts and downwind was a joy but under 12kts and the main flaps horrendously. We managed it best by having a tight topping lift, main sheet and preventer so that the boom was in a morn fixed position and only the sail flapped instead of the whole sail plus boom.


Thanks bc for the tips

[c-reel]

Originally Posted by bez

My apologies for offending protocol. We are quite new to this forum. Should I start a new thread?

Was kind of a joke !
While the Park Avenue Boom discussion or decision may be different between S and F.

[c-reel]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

How do people rig their preventers?
For us having the “S” with the helm and hard top bimini set on the stbd side there is no run fwd so we have to use the stbd aft cleat.
Port side is no issue and we use the port mid ships cleat.

I found that an wind over 13kts and downwind was a joy but under 12kts and the main flaps horrendously. We managed it best by having a tight topping lift, main sheet and preventer so that the boom was in a morn fixed position and only the sail flapped instead of the whole sail plus boom.


Thanks bc for the tips

I believe another difference between S and F.
This subject has bothered me for some time, as well as the lifeline.

Looked at AAC and see whether a similar system can be adapted for a Cat with a side helm, as with the L450 S on the starboard side.

See video below (and all articles if you are member), while not sure how it can be adapted that easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KPk5JMvkJU

[sidetracks]

Hi all


Dave. Congratulations to Hayley, you and crew on a safe crossing. What an achievement. Looking forward to watching more of the The Daley Adventure

Update
We finally completed our list of options (last night) Thanks to our agent. It was made more difficult by the lack of information on the options that Lagoon provides. We are still on course for Factory finish in Feb.

My aftermarket items
Code 0
CL360 Rib with 20hp electric engine with console.
Solar panels. (Thanks Dave )
Inverter


Hi Bez
Congratulations on your 405F

I would recommend you complete your options list now. It helps raise questions that needs answers. At least you will have time to compare options. We found, that the lack of detailed information, meant we felt forced into select items that we might have got aftermarket.

FYI
I removed the chart plotter at the nav stn from my list. Because Navionics recently released an app that syncs other devices with the chart plotter at the helm stn.
https://www.navionics.com/gbr/charts...ink&uid=520844

The little things means a lot.
We selected a double berth in the salon. The cushion we are paying extra for is a different colour to the rest in the salon.

We hope to have this resolved with understanding and diplomacy

A special thanks to Dave for starting this thread and to all who participated. You has been a great help to me. This time next year

Regards
George

[davedindubai]

I made my broker get me the 2x short legs for the saloon table. That’s it. A 800 euro option for a cushion and 2 short legs. What a joke! I wouldn’t settle for a different color. The strange color stools are bad enough.

Agree about the 2nd plotter. It gets very expensive buying 2 cards for each region. Backup nav should be charts plus an iPad.

Code 0 is a great option. It’s a much better sail than my now destroyed gennaker which blew in 12 knots apparent.

Rib is also going to serve you well. I wish I had a 20hp. With 4 pax plus luggage we can’t plane with our 15. [emoji26].

Thanks for the good wishes. For those interested, the boat did really well. We threw some nasty weather her way and she never skipped a beat. She makes a lot of noise, there’s creaks and cracks as she flexes but we felt safe and secure the whole crossing. No diving into waves and sitting in the cockpit for dinner of an evening with 5m waves catching and passing you without a spilt drink or a runaway pea is incredible.

[davedindubai]

Regarding a preventer. Ours takes only the time to hook a pre measured line onto a permanently installed Gibbs clip on the boom.

[bez]

Here's a cross section and a pic of the canoe boom that's now in the price list for about EU 5,000. It's quite different from the pictures of "Sacre Blue". I'd agree with Dave that something can be made aftermarket, but it also depends whether it also includes changes to sail cars etc. There is no further information available at this point, so I may skip it, and sort something out later.

[DavefromNZ]

Sorry to go on about this but I don't understand why you would not spend just a little more and fit, at purchase time, a Leisure Furl on the L450F in particular, and probably the L450S as well?

Six year with my L450F and by far the best and safest mod I did was the Leisure Furl. Thread: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-132743.html

It is very easy to raise and furl (reef) one person, even in bad weather, at up to 45deg to the waves. No stack pack, no lazy jacks to snag the battens, no reefing lines to tangle around the end of the boom, no stress on the reefing line when reefing, great sail shape when reefed. In an emergency can simply drop the whole sail quickly.

Yahn, from Lagoon, has seen the Leisure Furl on my yacht, I don't know why they would not offer it as an option?

Cheers, Dave

Sailing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHYiGH3QTTs&t=

Furled Up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbcfyFvffko

[PaulinOz]

Quote "I don't understand why you would not spend just a little more and fit, at purchase time, a Leisure Furl on the L450F in particular, and probably the L450S as well?"

Dave I have met 2 other Lagoons with in Boom furling and both of them like yourself swear by it . Totally agree with new boat purchase it makes sense.

Looked at it for retro fit a couple of years ago was quoted $38K AUD, so decided to wait till main sail needed replacing then revisit it again.

[bez]

Well Dave,
I asked my agent specifically about the Leisure Furl and asked for a quote.
I was advised against it in the strongest of terms, being quoted a case of someone with a 52 who apparently has spent a fortune and can't get it to work properly.
The clear suggestion was that I'd be a "guinea pig" and out on my own if anything was to go amiss with it.
Apparently, also, Lagoon won't quote the boat without sail and boom, or provide a credit, so I'd effectively be throwing away those pricey items.
If it was a Lagoon option, I'd certainly go for it, but as it stands it's probably better to wait until the sail wears down.

[DavefromNZ]

Well, that is Lagoon looking after revenue, and their suppliers, and not the customer, a pity! I agree it is too expensive to give up on the old sail and boom. Having said that, I disliked them so much and found the reefing scary in big seas so did just that. My yacht had become a slow launch for short trips as too much of a hassle to raise the mainsail.

I think I have effectively been the guinea pig with three years use. Far, far better than a stack pack that fails after 3 years sun (Incidence sails made).

The yacht parked next to me is a L440. He added the Leisure Furl and just sailed Tonga, Fiji, New Caledonia, Vanuatu and back to NZ and also loves it.

Cheer, dave