450: Just signed on a new 450s!

[davedindubai]

Hey guys, I am extremely pleased to report we made it all the way to America!!! Obviously for us this is a big achievement, 9,000nm and I’ve lost count of how many countries and islands we’ve visited in the last year but I’ve not come on looking for praise... I’ve got what may be some handy info for all those with EU boats coming to the US of A.

First a disclaimer: I’m NO electrician, the magic behind electricity will always elude me, plus it doesn’t help that I’m just not interested in electricity. So before I get jumped on for breakers this, amps that, honestly it falls on deaf ears, I just don’t get it.

Obviously the EU runs on 240v and the USA is 110v. This is a big problem for all us EU boat cruisers who think we can’t plug into a US Marina. I type this as I’m sat enjoying all the home comforts that shore side marina electricity has to offer. Is it a dream after 8 months on the anchor to not have to worry about turning the water heater off when the solar isn’t supplying? Damn skippy it is!

We achieved this incredible feat of genius not by rewiring our whole boat or buying a huge 110v to 240v transformer but by buying a $100 shore power male plug in West Marine.

This was not my idea (obviously) and this has been in use for many years by all the EU boats in this marina with absolutely no issue. All credit goes to my friend from CF: nimrodh, without who’s help we wouldn’t even be here!

Here’s the limit of my understanding. USA marina supply is 110v (125v actually) but they use 2 ‘live’ or ‘hot’ wires which each supply 110v (125v). You guessed it, here’s your 250v! Wire the new plug from west marine correctly and bobs your uncle.

I’ve included a couple of pics I took in the store. Hope this helps.
Dave.

[c-reel]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

I’ve included a couple of pics I took in the store. Hope this helps.
Dave.
Attachment 167435Attachment 167436

Welcome to America Dave
And yes, while we share a bit of the imperial measurements with you guys, remember the lbs and the pints may not be equal to the original...

Thanks for the info as usual (note: while in US, may check Amazon before Westmarine)

And this reminds me of another question i wanted to ask for a while: did you put an isolator on your electric system ?

I dont recall you had a Victron transformer but did you put a galvanic isolator as a precaution or just nothing at all ?


If you are in Florida, have fun diving... maybe few caves ?

[skrtnbrnk]

Curious to know if your reverse polarity light is on after changing out the plug?

Steve

[Pascals Wager]

Electricity is indeed a dark art. I can't help but think the solution is too simple but don't know why it might be a risk. As long as both hot wires are out of phase you will get 220v albeit at 60hz. I'm not smart enough to comment on the circuit/people protection this setup may or may not compromise, hopefully someone else knows these dark secrets.

[davedindubai]

Originally Posted by skrtnbrnk

Curious to know if your reverse polarity light is on after changing out the plug?

Steve

Indeed it does.

Just woke up and we are still here so this dark art must have some truth to it.

[davedindubai]

There’s a couple of limitations:

You will still only get the US 60hz - this won’t change so.

Your microwave won’t work.
Some washing machine water pumps won’t run (this seems to be sporadic tho)
All our other electronics work tho, pc, tv, iron, hair dryer (not mine).

I’ll swap the 2x hot ‘live’ wires tomorrow and see if the reverse polarity light goes out. Pics to follow too.

[Pascals Wager]

The reverse polarity light indicates a voltage across the neutral wire. Lagoon have put two pole breakers after the shore power plug and at the MCB panel but you should check any other AC power branches are similarly protected. Your neutral wire on board is most likely live.

[Steve_C]

I have no real understanding of EU wiring standards but I DO have a very strong understanding of US Wiring. As "Pascals Wager" mentioned you have likely attached 120 volt "Live" hot wire to you ground buss. It is very common for the Neutral buss to be bonded to the ground buss in the US. I doubt if you will get the reverse polarity light to turn off, and it is very possible that you have created a situation where the ground buss of you entire vessel could create a 120 Volt hazard between these parts and the water. You also could potentially create a very real electrolysis path.

I would certainly want to get some updated advise from someone familiar with how the EU circuit is actually wired on the Lagoon. I could be completely wrong, but considering the consequences It would be better to be sure than to assume that no hazard exists.

Best of Luck, and thanks for all the updates!

[davedindubai]

Got it!
I will research further.
FYI. This morning I swapped the 2x hot wires and the reverse polarity light is still on which supports Steve’s analysis above.


Here’s the 250v shore power plug

[skrtnbrnk]

Dave,
Steve C is correct. You will have electrolysis issues if you leave your boat hooked up this way. Depending on where you are and what you have running it could be slight to severe. I have been dealing with this issue for a couple of years. Luckily we caught it before it became a major issue. My electrician suggested we have installed a bypass switch for each reverse polarity light. According to him installing these disconnects one of the grounds that is connect to it. I am not an electrician so i dont fully understand but the test switch does work. When I push it the reverse polarity light comes on. When it is not pressed the ground wire causing the reverse polarity is disconnected. We have not seen any signs of electrolysis since this was installed. On my 2011 the only thing that does not work is the washer. My microwave works as do the A/C’s.

Steve K

[Pascals Wager]

Looking at the plug picture, your onboard neutral (blue) wire is connected to a 110 live input, thus your onboard neutral is live. The 220V being achieved by the difference between your 110V Hot (brown) wire and your now live neutral wire. As long as they are out of phase as they should be you get 220V. US 220V circuits dont use a neutral I believe. Lagoon place the reverse polarity light across the Grounding wire( zero volts) and the Neutral brown wire which should also be zero volts, thus the light does not normally come on. With voltage in the neutral wire it illuminates. The threat to safety is if only the Hot brown circuit on board has CB protection, in this case if your now live neutral wire shorts to the coffee machine for example the wires will over heat and possibly start a fire as current rapidly flows with little resistance from the neutral wire to the coffee machine to the Grounding wire and back to the shore power ground and into the grounding point. The neutral wire is connected to Ground at the Shore power supply as mention by another post but it will just as quickly go thru a person until the wire burns through. Lagoon however install dual pole breakers protecting both the Hot brown circuit and the Neutral blue circuit. If you have had AC mods post launch check they are equally protected. US boats require the AC grounding circuit to be connected to the DC neutral thus the Galvanic corrosion risk with a faulty shore power grounding wire. Lagoon being EU are not required to do this and use the RCD breakers to protect against leaky current. On my 450 (EU version) the AC grounding circuit and DC neutral are NOT connected ex factory.

I have reservations about having two live circuits onboard, however I can't say exactly why. Perhaps re-post the question on the Electrical Forum as I would like to hear a definifitive answer.

[davedindubai]

I’ve decided in the light of so much doubt and lack of a definitive answers to treat my shore power solution like my genny... I’ll live off our 5kva Quattro as normal and use the shore power to top up the batteries if needed.

Here’s some extra info for others:
Our Neutral is not connected to our ground. I used a meter to check for continuity on a few different plug sockets.

As PW states above when connected to the US shore power we get 120v on both circuits, live and neutral. I used a meter to check the pins in a socket.

As is usual in this thread, I’m learning all the time but I still have no interest in electrickery [emoji51].

[Bean Counter]

I think next time we are in the US and spending any significant time in marinas needing to use Aircon in mid summer we may buy an isolation transformer that takes the two hot wires and converts to one hot 240V - Victron 7Kw - about $1k. There maybe less expensive options though.

[davedindubai]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

I think next time we are in the US and spending any significant time in marinas needing to use Aircon in mid summer we may buy an isolation transformer that takes the two hot wires and converts to one hot 240V - Victron 7Kw - about $1k. There maybe less expensive options though.

For sure. We’re only here short term so this solution is more than adequate especially as we don’t have air con [emoji855]

[Berry Zondag]

If I could enter a query into this electrical debate please.

It is about capacity of the davits and has been discussed elsewhere, but I can't find it again. We're now close to getting our boat (450F in July), and decided to get a slightly larger dinghy (Highfield 360 or 380 with 30HP). According to what I remember from the previous threads that size of 3.8 mtr should still fit and the total weight will be about 180 Kg. Our agent is now saying that Lagoon will not guarantee its davits for any other dinghy than their Highfield 340 option with 20HP engine, which would weigh about 140 Kg. I can't find anything about this in the specs that I have, but would guess there is some maximum load sticker on the davits somewhere. Would anyone care to have a look, or provide their views please, also about the space for a 3.8 mtr dinghy.