Recommendations on off the shelf nav/wind/AIS transponder?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Chotu

OK. Great. This is the one I’m looking at. Can anyone see any mistakes if I get this? I really don’t want to buy things incorrectly. I have done enough of that in this project.





https://www.defender.com/product.jsp...817&id=2075791

That’s a fine unit, but if you can find an i70 then that display can show wind or whatever other data you want to feed it, rather than just wind.

[stevead]

Thought I'd add my $0.02 worth.

Cabling, Install a NMEA 2000 backbone. The industry has reached an inflection point where now most devices have a NMEA 2000 connector. The cabling and connectors are more robust than those typically used on NMEA 183 and it removes the need for the usual rats nest of cables going from transducers to displays or the requirement for a NMEA 183 multiplexer. Diagnosing faults is a little easier either by disconnecting/connecting T-pieces, drop cables and terminators, using a multimeter to measure the voltage across the power pairs or resistance across the data pairs and sometimes the built-in diagnostics of some display devices.

Transducers (speed, wind, depth, compass). The NMEA 2000 messages for these are well known and mature and you can mix-n-match transducers and displays from different vendors and they will all display the correct data. The only caveat is that depending on vendor, some transducers require calibration (depth - offset to keel, wind - orientation to mast, paddlwheel - speed) and often this can only be performed from the same vendor's instrument displays or multi-function displays (MFD), so read the installation instructions to determine what transducers will suit your requirements. You can also contemplate using NMEA 2000 sensors to monitor other systems such as tank levels (fuel, water, waste), batteries, engine etc. You can even go all out and control your entertainment systems or even control electrical circuits (lights etc.) with a digital switching system !

AIS. Similar to transducers the NMEA 2000 messages are well defined and you can mix-n-match AIS transponders. All of the current range of MFD's are capable of displaying AIS targets on their displays. You will have to navigate each AIS vendors' product brochures as there are now a myriad of options to choose from. Wired NMEA 2000 or 183 connections, WiFi (both web browser access and NMEA 183 over TCP/IP), antenna splitters, Android & iPhone apps etc.

MFD. If you choose to install a MFD, each of the major vendors have reasonably competitive offerings, with similar features and usability. While the MFD's can display data from other vendor's transducers, the same cannot be said for autopilots or radar. Your choice of MFD will therefore be dependent on whether you choose to install an autopilot and/or radar.

While an autopilot can receive heading and wind data from any vendor's transducer, you can only engage the autopilot (selecting stand-by, heading, wind or track modes) from the same vendor's displays or controllers because they all use proprietary NMEA 2000 messages to control the operation of the autopilot. Similarly for radars where vendors generally use proprietary data formats over the Ethernet connection to render the radar targets.

VHF-DSC. This is a little tricky, Firstly there is the option of purchasing a VHF-DSC with its own GPS, eliminating the need to feed it with GPS position data. Alternatively you can purchase a VHF-DSC without an internal GPS, that requires a separate GPS data feed, easy to connect when using NMEA 2000. Next is upon reception of a DSC alert, whether the MFD is capable of displaying the target on screen. Most should, but there seems to be much variance between MFD vendors as to whether they display DSC Distress Alerts, DSC Distress Relay Alerts, DSC Position or Poll reports.

There is also the option of initiating a VHF-DSC call from a MFD, however possibly due to immaturity or vagueness of the NMEA 2000 DSC standards, or heaven forbid, vendor lock-in, this feature seems only to be available if using MFD's and VHF-DSC radios from the same vendor.

Integration with PC's and tablets. Most of the vendors offer apps that integrate tablets with their MFD's (Garmin - Active Captain, Raymarine - RayControl, Navico - Go Free/Link etc).

Third party apps such as Navionics, iNavx, OpenCPN etc. can use NMEA 183 over TCP/IP that could be transmitted from either an AIS transponder or MFD that has that capability or from a third party NMEA 2000 gateway such as the Actisense NGW-1, Yacht Devices YDWG-02, Ship Modul etc. Note also that OpenCPN and Signal-K can also connect directly with NMEA 2000 through the use of suitable CAN Bus adapters.

Finally, as the old saying goes: "One throat to choke". If you do choose to go down the road of mix-n-matching components, then you shoulder the burden of the systems integration, whereas at least if you select a system from one vendor, it should be easier to apportion blame should something fail.

[Chotu]

Whoa!!!

Now THAT is the definitive guide to understanding marine electronics.

Thank you!

Now I fully understand.

I already have a Raymarine AP and control as well as VHF with built in DSC, GPS (and AIS)

I’m adding wind/depth and a display for chart plotting as well as AIS transceiver and maybe radar eventually.

I like iNavX and a tablet for chart plotting.

I don’t have tachometers for my engines. Couldn’t get them to wire into the crazy set of data cables for the engines and work.

So… being able to check the RPMs electronically would be nice

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by stevead

While an autopilot can receive heading and wind data from any vendor's transducer, you can only engage the autopilot (selecting stand-by, heading, wind or track modes) from the same vendor's displays or controllers because they all use proprietary NMEA 2000 messages to control the operation of the autopilot. Similarly for radars where vendors generally use proprietary data formats over the Ethernet connection to render the radar targets.

I am not sure this is true. You may need to reconfigure the data sentences between disparate MFD and A/P, but the A/P and radar should be able to be harmonized (with possible exception of Garmin, which seems to have a walled garden philosophy and doesn't play nicely).

BTW- I'd guess that >90% of the sensors (wind, weather, speed, depth) in this market are Airmar regardless of what brand they have on the package.

Chotu - reason for power-heavy response in this thread is likely because many powerboaters are ex-sailors. Powerboats tend to have plenty of room for electronics so some folks have quite an arsenal. Finally, I can report that my helm console includes wind instruments - especially helpful when docking from an enclosed pilothouse.

I used to read TheHullTruth forum which has mostly smaller fishing boats. Those guys are hard-core Lowrance and will spend a lot of money on their electronics.

[goboatingnow]

Tne pgns to enable track mode are standardised. The pgns to do things like 1-10 degrees turns etc are proprietary. So control heads can’t be mixed and matched

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I used to read TheHullTruth forum which has mostly smaller fishing boats. Those guys are hard-core Lowrance and will spend a lot of money on their electronics.

As a note, the Lowrance-loving fishing guys upgrade their electronics more often than anybody. So Lowrance represents a huge portion of the fairly recent electronics available on the used market.

[stevead]

I am not sure this is true. You may need to reconfigure the data sentences between disparate MFD and A/P, but the A/P and radar should be able to be harmonized (with possible exception of Garmin, which seems to have a walled garden philosophy and doesn't play nicely).

Having reverse engineered the NMEA 2000 messages used by Raymarine and B&G autopilots, and now attempting Garmin & Furuno I can assure you that each vendor uses different NMEA 2000 Parameter Group Numbers (PGN's) with entirely different sets of data. You cannot mix-n-match different brands of autopilot computers and control heads. And there is enough variation in the use of the standard PGNs, 129283 (Cross Track Error), 120284 (Navigation Data) and 129285 (Route and Waypoint Information) that a waypoint or route selected on one brand of MFD may not be sufficient to allow another brand of autopilot to follow that route.

Lowrance-loving fishing guys

Navico, the parent company positions their brands to different market segments: Lowrance for recreational anglers, B&G for yachting, Simrad for power-boaters and Simrad Commercial to the commercial marine industry.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by stevead

Navico, the parent company positions their brands to different market segments: Lowrance for recreational anglers, B&G for yachting, Simrad for power-boaters and Simrad Commercial to the commercial marine industry.

Yes, but Lowrance was popular in the fishing world before it became part of the Navico umbrella.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

As a note, the Lowrance-loving fishing guys upgrade their electronics more often than anybody. So Lowrance represents a huge portion of the fairly recent electronics available on the used market.

I'm in Ensenada - Baja 1000 was this past weekend. Vast majority run Lowrance, a few Garmin - refresh rate must be insanely fast as copilot is reading the display and giving driver directions ("Right-3" for a sharp rigjt turn coming up, etc.). Have seen Lowrance on fleet OTR trucks too. Navico has a vast market presence with tentacles into several niches beyond marine.

I think sailors have very specific requirement due to variability of wind. At the upper end of sail racing, investment is extreme. But for typical cruising-sail market represented in forums like this, folks seem content with tablets and freeware wherever possible.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by stevead

Having reverse engineered the NMEA 2000 messages used by Raymarine and B&G autopilots, and now attempting Garmin & Furuno I can assure you that each vendor uses different NMEA 2000 Parameter Group Numbers (PGN's) with entirely different sets of data. You cannot mix-n-match different brands of autopilot computers and control heads. And there is enough variation in the use of the standard PGNs, 129283 (Cross Track Error), 120284 (Navigation Data) and 129285 (Route and Waypoint Information) that a waypoint or route selected on one brand of MFD may not be sufficient to allow another brand of autopilot to follow that route.

Navico, the parent company positions their brands to different market segments: Lowrance for recreational anglers, B&G for yachting, Simrad for power-boaters and Simrad Commercial to the commercial marine industry.

I had no problem interfacing a ComNav autopilot with my Simrad MFD, though ComNav was 0183 vs N2K.

Recently I've bumped into some very knowledgeable electronics guys who have returned to 0183. Maybe there's something to be said for 0183 despite the hassle of running pairs of wires.

I'd be stunned to learn that the entire ecosystem must be same brand to coexist. Totally understand same-brand may mean easier plug and play, but for the most part, only new boat purchase do the entire system refresh. Upgrades are normally piecemeal.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I had no problem interfacing a ComNav autopilot with my Simrad MFD, though ComNav was 0183 vs N2K.

Recently I've bumped into some very knowledgeable electronics guys who have returned to 0183. Maybe there's something to be said for 0183 despite the hassle of running pairs of wires.

I'd be stunned to learn that the entire ecosystem must be same brand to coexist. Totally understand same-brand may mean easier plug and play, but for the most part, only new boat purchase do the entire system refresh. Upgrades are normally piecemeal.

0183 is a sea of incompatible messiness especially around later stuff like ais & DSC vhf integration. Stay with nmea2k at all costs. 0183 is good for the trash bin

Nmea2k does allow a degree of inter company integration. But the best results are get by staying inside the “ walled garden “ just like Apple integration

[Chotu]

I guess I’ll stay inside the RayMarine garden.

I’ve already invested in the auto pilot. I’ll stick with that for wind and depth and whatnot, getting the i70 kit

Can I get some of the data off of my outboards to see on a display?

They are Evinrude etec computers with a prop that goes into the water at the base.

A very complicated wiring cable on the order of an HDMI cable’s complexity comes up to the helm from them.

This is the cable that comes to the helm.

[stevead]

My understanding is that the ETEC engines do output NMEA 2000 engine related data, so assuming you install MFD's or instrument displays that support engine gauges, you'll be able to monitor engine related data (RPM's oil pressure, engine temperature, engine hours etc.)

From your picture it looks as if you may also need an adapter cable from one of the Evinrude sockets to a NMEA 2000 connector. (Or perhaps a pair of cables as I assume you have two engines for your cat).

I suggest having a read of your our Evinrude manuals to understand what plugs do what and what adapter cables you may need and maybe google "evinrude etec nmea 2000" or further info.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by stevead

My understanding is that the ETEC engines do output NMEA 2000 engine related data, so assuming you install MFD's or instrument displays that support engine gauges, you'll be able to monitor engine related data (RPM's oil pressure, engine temperature, engine hours etc.)

From your picture it looks as if you may also need an adapter cable from one of the Evinrude sockets to a NMEA 2000 connector. (Or perhaps a pair of cables as I assume you have two engines for your cat).

I suggest having a read of your our Evinrude manuals to understand what plugs do what and what adapter cables you may need and maybe google "evinrude etec nmea 2000" or further info.

That’s really cool!

I’m glad it’s possible.

To update this thread a bit, I’m now the proud owner of something I didn’t want or need: a Raymarine MFD.

My stand alone Raymarine autopilot wouldn’t work anymore because I upgraded the ACU in order to convert to a hydraulic pump autohelm. The Raymarine techs that helped me select the products never mentioned this factor.

So my p70 control head and the new APU (as well as the old EV-1 sensor) wouldn’t talk to each other.

So…. The only choice was to update the software in these items. So they were all on the latest version. And guess what? You can’t do that.

There is no way to update the software in the P 70 control head, the APU, and the EV-1. You have to bring them in to a shop that wanted $137 an hour, is 2 hours of driving and wanted yo put me in on a time slot for December 12 - for a 15 minute job!!

So screw all that.

I had to buy the Raymarine MFD. Something I didn’t want or need. They got me.

I was able to use that mfd to update everything (it took 15 minutes) and now the autohelm works.

Which means I can fill up the new hydraulic steering system, bleed it and should hopefully have new, upgraded steering and a working autohelm today.

I have also noticed the Raymarine mfd is just an Android tablet. So maybe it’ll be fairly easy to get it to read the engine data off the network. Psst: no oil pressure , just oil level data possibly. Evinrude etec)

Would be cool to open up a second window inside the display to show RPMs when motoring. Or maybe put those on the i70 display that comes with the wind instruments?

[Chotu]

Also, all I know is thank god I have a background in science and computer science. If you were not a person with a lot of technical understanding this stuff would be a nightmare.