Will electric outboards start replacing diesel inboards?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Did somebody mention that the distance these ferries run, slip to slip, is 2.63 NM - I say again: Two decimal six three nautical miles, and that the crossing time, and therefore the time twixt charges, is less than 20 minutes?

So I'm not getting my 3500 nautical mile range @ 7.5 knots then?

[LuvSun]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

One should note that they have incorporated diesel power as a backup for the 'reliable' electric power. This makes good sense safetywise and isn't really a condemnation, but does cast a slightly different light on the (very interesting and positive) experiment.

Jim

100%



I think no matter how much electricity is generated autonomously to power the Engine, and then your lights etc after the engine, It is indeed very smart to have a generator to get things working should total discharge occur.

Also even hybrid engines arent total replacements like the hydrogen systems.

I think its all about reducing our consumption rather than replacing at this point in time, then perhaps ones the hydrogen systems are proven some may pay the costs. Like OLED TVs, were $12k are now $2k on sale for a nice Sony 4 HDR OLED.

Its watch this space kind of thing.

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

The 2 major problems are no where near 5-7 years away. The math is very simple:

1) Energy storage density:
Gas/diesel: 45 MJ/Kg
The best lithium battery: <1 MJ/Kg
The best current lab only, metal air, battery: <4 MJ/Kg
Hydrogen: 120 MJ/Kg ... but requires 20 times the volume of gas/diesel @ 3000psi

2) Poor solar efficiency. The best solar cells provide: 18 watts/sq ft. A massive 20x20 ft solar cell assuming perfect light conditions, imaginary wiring and imaginary regulation generates 7200 watts ... which is less than 10 horsepower.

Each 10 shaft HP you desire requires 7.5kW of power. What technology break through in the next 5-7 years will allow you to store or generate that amount of power using anything other than fossil fuels?

^^^^^^ This!

It appears most are naive about how much energy fossil fuels contain.

[cj88]

Originally Posted by OldMan

^^^^^^ This!

It appears most are naive about how much energy fossil fuels contain.

I don't know if it's naive so much as there is a growing desire in some people to find a way to meet ones actual "needs" rather than "wants" with an alternative to fossil fuels for a range of different reasons. I grew up when a motor on a sailboat was an auxiliary but it seems most people these days treat it as the most important way of moving their boat. Sadly, it appears that we have been taught to value convenience and comfort above all else.

On another note, there are some promising efforts to harvest solar power on a wider range of surfaces using different methods to the standard solar panel which could help. I do also think that the best solutions will be those where the boats are designed from the ground up to include electric propulsion and energy generation right from the start making it more viable, retrofitting isn't the ideal scenario. For example, including the battery storage as a part of the original ballast design and lighter, faster boats that are much more suited to hydrogeneration. Maybe rim drives might be better than standard propellers or sails that could use nanotech or dye-based solar harvesting solutions. It may be a multitude of small improvements in a number of areas that add up to enough of an improvement to make the change workable but I do agree that there are some boats and situations where it just isn't worth it.

[TrentePieds]

Well, yes. We are so locked into our profligate use of carbon fuels that we generally have no idea of how LITTLE energy other sources can supply in comparison.

Rig a 120V generator to a stationary bike. Connect a standard incandescent 100W bulb to the generator. Get on the bike and start pedaling. Pedal hard enuff to keep the bulb glowing as it would in your house, and you'll find yourself panting for breath in 5 minutes. 10 minutes if you are really, really fit.

I see that yesterday I blew through 23KWh in my modest condo in climatically benign Vancouver B.C. To supply that via blokes on bikes killing themselves pedaling, I would need to have 310 of them, or thereabouts. Give'm a break and work 'em only in 8 hour shifts, then each and every day, day in and day out, I'd have to employ/keep as slaves a thousand men. I pay about 8¢/KWh to "Beastly Hydro" (B.C. Hydro Authority), so yesterday cost me less than two bux.

That puts some perspective on why our perceptions of energy use are so distorted and how little we comprehend, generally, of what it REALLY takes to propel a ship.

TP

[LuvSun]

I think also people, especially cruisers, when you talk electrics they automantically go to their current small lithium setups powered via solar, hydro, wind and that seems staggering that we can even do that. How could we possibly run electric engines endlessly or at least on a scale equivalent to diesel without needing to "plug it into a wall".

If electric does go down that path of plug and play not hydrogen endless free energy. Then Id expect to see fast charge ports at the marina etc.

But its all complete speculation at this stage. Its just cool that we are having the discussion of what is coming. :-)

[TrentePieds]

FWIW, I went to some sources in Danish regarding the "electric" ferries twixt Denmark and Sweden. They were both built in 1991 and had at that time electric transmission, i.e. the screws were driven by electric motors which took their power from generators coupled to the diesels. It appears that what ABB (Brown Bovery in Switzerland, a major builder of electric locomotives) supplied were the batteries and the associated control and charging devices. The electric propulsion motors appear to be "old school" still at this date.

In short, what was done to the 7K ton displacement ferries was add 90 tons of batteries and control gear. That means a reduction of about 45 European cars in the design capacity of 240.

Given the nature of the traffic they carry, that seems a sensible enuff trade off, and as they are only a tad over 25 years old, it is reasonable to expect another 15 years of service life before they will have to be retired. We may deduce that the installation of batteries and control gear was part of an otherwise normal "half life" refit.

The reported installed diesel power is 4 x 2,430KW for a total of a tad under 10,000KW or about three times the effect of GM's largest, most modern diesel locomotive in service in North America. I mention that as further illumination of what I said in a previous post - that we have, generally, very little intuitive understanding of what it really takes to drive a ship. Even a small one. Many ferries in the B.C.Ferries fleet are twice the tonnage of Tycho Brahe. And their run, slip to slip, is about 50 NM.

TP

[DeValency]

Now, this thread can and should go on and on for years as we are talking about a revolution but til then just an evolution, one step at a time, based on availability of the technical parts, costs and above all - each sailor sailing and cruising common pattern. There is no practical all electric solution for motoring 40 hours at cruising speed, but there are solutions, already in use on sailboats 30-40’ allowing 4-5 hours of continuous electric motoring, using a battery bank of 12 Li-Io 100Ah each batteries. Of course if you hybrid with a genset this range can be extended to almost any reasonable range for sailors.

Now, if you do not know Sailing Uma - spare some good hours for binge watching this amazing couple - young architects that just made it, very much on their own. Make sure you also watch the episode of getting the new Li-Io batteries on board much later in their thread. Now, this is a 100% DIY project, there are ready made sets that cost approx $12,000 for a typical 32-34’ sailboat. Unfortunately, not yet feasible for my 44’ medium displacement cruiser that still have a rather new diesel, but in 5-10 years... I’m almost sure my next propulsion will be electric/hybrid.
Here is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L1x...&feature=share

Go to their entire thread... there are multiple episodes on the electric propulsion project and other inspiring episodes you may like.

Again, NOT FOR ANYONE, NOT FOR ALL SAILING PATTERNS. Just a food for thought and highly inspiring people with out of the box ideas.

Suggest to also visit their website https://www.sailinguma.com/

Enjoy!

[myocean]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Did somebody mention that the distance these ferries run, slip to slip, is 2.63 NM

Short distance but the largest electric ferry world wide.
The longest distance covered by an electric ferry will soon be 21.4 miles from Søby to Fynshav in Denmark. It's this one from the "E-Ferry Project"

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

We already know that we are buggering about with 10,000V, right?

This is very normal for high-power infrastructure. A typical high-speed train for example has a power of 10 000 kW at 15 000 V.


This all makes a lot of sense. On one hand - in many cases cost of operation is just lower (fuel + inefficiency of engines is just expensive), and on the other hand it is good for the planet because over the lifetime Carbon emissions are a lot lower.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by LuvSun

Please read the appropriate points in this thread so you actually know where the electricity for the electric engines are coming from, its not diesel.

This is getting tiring explaining the variety of electric systems over and over again for every person who doesnt read the thread.

If you cant be bothered reading it all, just dont post would be easier. Thank you.

So clarify for us where you think the power is coming from because there are multiple sources for the power discussed in the thread...including a diesel generator.

Solar & wind simply don't produce enough to provide more than a few minutes at typical displacement cruising speeds per day unless you get crazy eliminating the mast/sails and covering the entire deck with solar panels...but even then it's very limited (some large test vessels completely covered by solar panels at massive cost only manage around 4kts continuous speeds where an equivalent diesel should easily be able to manage 10-15kts with minimal power.)

Hydrogen sounds great in theory (though not so much in practicality) but you need a source of power to create the hydrogen.

Where else do you think the power is coming from?

[TrentePieds]

A mere quibble: The distance of the track from Søby to Fynshav is not 21.5 miles, but rather about 11NM, which of course translates to 21 or 22 KM. Prolly just a translation error. Nevertheless, it overstates the anticipated consumption, which is already pretty skookum, by 100%.

You will recall that I made specific reference to ABB, the noted Swiss builders of locomotives, and that I drew a comparison with the biggest, most powerful locomotives on the North American continent. You will recall that after the OPEC scare of 1973 the Danish State Railways began to electrify. The motivation was not an airy-fairy desire to be "green", but rather fear of being left in the lurch by the likes of Britain and of America and her client states that supplied Denmark's coal and oil, since she herself has none. The first all electric equipment put into service by DSR (DSB) was Class EA running on 25kV AC supplied by catenary - extension cord if you will. The suburban services around Copenhagen run on 1,650V DC again via catenary and have done so since the early 1930s.

All that to point out that the "business ends" of these "electric" ferries' propulsive systems are entirely old hat, and is nothing to write home about. They are exactly analogous to what we've been doing since me grandad was a toddler.

The piece we are missing, and the piece we are dreaming about so perfervidly, is the "middle bit" of the system, the bit between the generator and the user device, in other words, a "buffer" where to accumulate surplus generation and from which to draw deficiencies in supply. Expecting that we mere mortals can devise and produce ANYTHING that will furnish such a buffer with anything near the effectiveness and capacity that Mother Nature has already done in the form of petroleum is, bei mir, an arrogance to be expected of Homo Sapiens. Therefore there will be those that will continue to try. And will continue to fail. The first 20% of improvement is relatively easy to get. The remaining 80% is the toughie!

So back to the Søby-Fynshav job. Nothing more than your conventional smallish RO-RO job. She was built in Stettin in Poland on the conventional pattern the Poles have used since the end of WWII. All the Danes are doing (apart from the normal fitting out) is loading her up with batteries installed in two separate "cargo holds". It is bruited about that the weight of batteries is 50 tons and that they have a capacity of 4.25 MEGA-watt/hours! The battery cases are modular, looking forward to the day when better chemistry can be furnished in cases of the same dimensions so it will be a mere plug-in job to replace the existing ones. More immediately, this also facilitates replacement of failing batteries.

Remembering, now, what I said about the reason for electrifying the Danish railways: The hope for this particular ferry, and others like her yet to come, is that the ginormous energy required to make her function at all will come from WIND GENERATED power, and more specifically from wind turbines native to the puny little appropriately named island of Aero (Ærø) where Søby is situated. Fortunately, in Denmark it blows to beat the band - all day and all night every day and night - and there are in fact already small islands that are entirely self-sufficient in "green" electricity. Again, these things have been driven for 40 years by fears of the country having to shut down as a result of her energy suppliers being untrustworthy, and by the consequent urgent need for "import substitution".

That however brings us no closer to a remediation of the fundamental weakness in the concept of ALL-electric propulsion of ships: The impossibility of supplying them by extension cord! The break-through in storage technology will not come from Denmark, all her "forward thinking" notwithstanding. She simply isn't big enuff to have an economy powerful enuff to permit such developments. It takes an economy, and a scientific establishment, the size of that of the US or of Russia.

IMO, anyone who expects all-electric propulsion of yachts will have to wait for a long, long time :-)!

TP

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

So I'm not getting my 3500 nautical mile range @ 7.5 knots then?

You could as long as you didn’t mind an intermittent 7.5kt.

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by cj88

I don't know if it's naive so much as there is a growing desire in some people to find a way to meet ones actual "needs" rather than "wants" with an alternative to fossil fuels for a range of different reasons. I grew up when a motor on a sailboat was an auxiliary but it seems most people these days treat it as the most important way of moving their boat. Sadly, it appears that we have been taught to value convenience and comfort above all else. ....

The good news is everyone gets to chose their own style.

[myocean]

Dear TrentePeids, I really wonder what is the motivation to use incorrect information.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

A mere quibble: The distance of the track from Søby to Fynshav is not 21.5 miles, but rather about 11NM, which of course translates to 21 or 22 KM.

You are right, but this is not the range of the ferry because the one charging station will be in Aeroe - not in all three ports. So here you are again at 22 NM. The operational speed is 14 kts.
The battery manufacturer for this, is the largest and most respected Lithum battery manucaturers for industrial applications, Leclanche.
They state: The emission-free, passenger and car ferry will be able to sail a record 60 nautical miles (110 km) on a single charge. Well, this is may be some marketing talk - no wind and flat sea, I guess, but still nice.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

All that to point out that the "business ends" of these "electric" ferries' propulsive systems are entirely old hat,

And this is exactly why people do not need to bother about many technical problems, e.g. with charging large batteries.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

a "buffer" where to accumulate surplus generation and from which to draw deficiencies in supply. Expecting that we mere mortals can devise and produce ANYTHING that will furnish such a buffer with anything near the effectiveness and capacity that Mother Nature has already done in the form of petroleum is
, bei mir, an arrogance to be expected of Homo Sapiens.

I think this is not the goal, right? The goal is to use the technology available in applications where it makes sense for the people, the country, the planet.
And as the International Maritime Organisation IMO has set the goal to reduce Carbon emissions by 50%, it is a good idea to start with the transition wherever it is technically feasible.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Nothing more than your conventional smallish RO-RO job. She was built in Stettin in Poland on the conventional pattern the Poles have used since the end of WWII.

You are missing the light weight design and materials in order to reduce displacement and compensate for battery weight. Not something so trivial.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

It is bruited about that the weight of batteries is 50 tons and that they have a capacity of 4.25 MEGA-watt/hours!

You may use data from WWII.
Reading on the website of Leclanche you find information with is in line with other battery manufacturers like Corvus or EST Floattech. 4.25 MWh weigh about 10 tons, which is not a lot for this size of ship and the range we are talking about.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

the enormous energy required

What is enormous about 4.25 MWh?
This is the hourly consumption of a normal fast train.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

The break-through in storage technology will not come from Denmark, all her "forward thinking" notwithstanding. She simply isn't big enuff to have an economy powerful enuff to permit such developments.

Thanks God this is an EU project, not a sole Danish project. And the storage technology comes from Switzerland, with a performance which is very suitable for this application already today.

[TrentePieds]

Hello MyOcean and others interested in this topic.

You, MO, have set me thinking about this topic. If you can extirpate my skepticism, I - and probably others - will be very grateful :-) However, to do that will take rather more than assertions on a web forum. As I was taught by a wise man a long, long time ago "If it ain't quannified, it don't count!" :-)

So sculling about HolyMotherNet for quantification I found this, inter alia, and thot it might be of interest to others:

Water-Cooled Batteries Ensure Fast Charging of Electric Ferries Across Øresund - PBES

But we need to keep in mind that the discussion originated because someone thot that this technology may evolve in manner that will make it accessible to benighted yotties such as me. That the technology is already available for "commercial" application is neither here nor there in this context, for in very instance I've found so far, the construction/conversion of the vessels and the development and supply of the on-board electrics as well as the charging equipment at dockside is heavily subsidized by the public purse. IOW economic justification is not required. We might make note that the ferry system you have put before us as an example is OWNED - flat out OWNED - by the "kommune", i.e. the municipality, of Ærøskøbing. In some quarters they call such an arrangement "filthy socialism".

Under such economic conditions the technology is obviously viable, but I'm a long way from being convinced that it could ever become accessible to hobbyist yotties such as me in our conventional market economy. But do keep working on it :-)!

TP