Will electric outboards start replacing diesel inboards?

[myocean]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Hello MyOcean and others interested in this topic.
You, MO, have set me thinking about this topic. If you can extirpate my skepticism, I - and probably others - will be very grateful :-)

Dear TrentePieds, I think this topic is - for recreational applications - mostly about personal preferences. Some people want the most economic solution, others definitely want to keep their way of living as it is, without changing their mindset or level of indipendency, others want as little noise on board as possible and and more and more want to minimize their impact on climate change or demonstrate to other people that this is feasible if you want.
Certainly I have my personal ideas about this as well but
the most important thing it to keep the discussion close to facts. We should all look at solid data which is up to date at the same time.

Regarding the commercial applications I can tell you from my professional background that there are already today marine transport applications where hybrid- and electric propulsion makes a lot of sense economically because fuel costs are about three quarters of the operational expenditures. Look at tug boats for example: Hybrid can save 30% of fuel.
In addition, there are more and more governments or municipalities which increase the pressure to eliminate emissions, even if this means you need to accept economic disadvantages (Amsterdam: All electric by law from 2025, Norway: stringent NOx taxes for ships).
Then, looking into the future, you can expect that this pressure will increase and Carbon taxes will come. So it is wise to start the process of transformation today where it makes most sense and have workable solutions tested and proven as soon as possible. In general we will probably even have to accept, that certain lifestyles and even mobility, might become more expensive in future because the resources of the planet are limited. (This is what science says)

[DeValency]

My ocean and all -

Fully agree here. The state of the art in electric/hybrid propulsion is still limited for most of us for different, also individual reasons. This, however, must not pull us from a serious look into this subject as:
- electric power for any passage making: cars, trains, vessels and even airplanes is going to dominate the future. In some areas faster in other it will take longer but eventually will be the main drive force.

- the recreational sailing market is way too small to pull an entire industry for specific design and R&D of electric propulsion just for us.

BUT!
• technologies taken from other segments - cars, motorcycles etc are and will be repositioned for OUR use.
• these will include advanced motors, batteries, chargers, controllers etc.
• the fact these will be sourced from the huge car industry will make all that affordable for us. Certain kits are already here.

I’m reading some stubborn opinions here. That’s ok, no one will take your good old diesel if this is the only option you like. But if we don’t stay open, enthusiastic and innovative about it we’ll stay behind - just like Detroit that without the government rescue would have been out of business by 2011 if not earlier.

Sailors, for 3,000+ years led global exploration and humanity progress - we have a role here! We want to attract our kids to be sailors and cruisers. It is not going to happen if we don’t show them innovation, creativity and cool technologies that add to our comfort, experience, communication and integration with the mobility world.

If we’ll not progress - fast! - we may end up being the last generation of sailing-cruisers

Originally Posted by myocean

Dear TrentePieds, I think this topic is - for recreational applications - mostly about personal preferences. Some people want the most economic solution, others definitely want to keep their way of living as it is, without changing their mindset or level of indipendency, others want as little noise on board as possible and and more and more want to minimize their impact on climate change or demonstrate to other people that this is feasible if you want.
Certainly I have my personal ideas about this as well but
the most important thing it to keep the discussion close to facts. We should all look at solid data which is up to date at the same time.

Regarding the commercial applications I can tell you from my professional background that there are already today marine transport applications where hybrid- and electric propulsion makes a lot of sense economically because fuel costs are about three quarters of the operational expenditures. Look at tug boats for example: Hybrid can save 30% of fuel.
In addition, there are more and more governments or municipalities which increase the pressure to eliminate emissions, even if this means you need to accept economic disadvantages (Amsterdam: All electric by law from 2025, Norway: stringent NOx taxes for ships).
Then, looking into the future, you can expect that this pressure will increase and Carbon taxes will come. So it is wise to start the process of transformation today where it makes most sense and have workable solutions tested and proven as soon as possible. In general we will probably even have to accept, that certain lifestyles and even mobility, might become more expensive in future because the resources of the planet are limited. (This is what science says)

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by newhaul

it is a simple fact that electric will never completely replace diesel engines on boats .

Where is such a "fact" coming from, one wonders? Or in other words, how can a future being stated, not predicted, with a decent degree of accuracy?

Are you maybe a disguised time traveller? If so, how far into the future did you go to come up with this statement?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by hzcruiser

Where is such a "fact" coming from, one wonders? Or in other words, how can a future being stated, not predicted, with a decent degree of accuracy?

Are you maybe a disguised time traveller? If so, how far into the future did you go to come up with this statement?

simple physics .
On a 30 to 40 +/- ft sailboat there will not be any system that can store the energy density of diesel.
Hence you will either have diesel for actual propulsion or for power generation to be used for electric propulsion.
Simple fact a small vessel just doesn't have the room to devote to battery based storage of energy sufficient to propel the vessel at any reasonable speed for any significant period of time without a reliable source of additional power generation.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by myocean

Don't want to belive?
Here an interesting video, showing even the charging robot
https://youtu.be/dgg_pohK-q8

It seems they used a two step process: 5 years ago they installed electric motors but they were driven by electricity made through the diesels, then they added lots of batts and now run mostly on batts but still have the option to turn on the diesel as a backup.


There are other long range big ships out there that use diesel engines to make electricity to run the electric motors.

Maybe it's time for those people that ridiculed this concept to read up on it ?

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by newhaul

simple physics .
On a 30 to 40 +/- ft sailboat there will not be any system that can store the energy density of diesel.
Hence you will either have diesel for actual propulsion or for power generation to be used for electric propulsion.
Simple fact a small vessel just doesn't have the room to devote to battery based storage of energy sufficient to propel the vessel at any reasonable speed for any significant period of time without a reliable source of additional power generation.

Oh, well, let's leave it at that then and see what the future in energy storage has in store for us...

[flyingfin]

Problem is even an electric motor gets hot and needs cooling. Most have open air holes and fan on the end of shaft. In a moist environment, that dont work, so you make the electric motor waterproof and fully submerse it in water, or surround it with a water cooled jacket. But that just makes the electric motor more expensive. Try pricing out a 20 hp sewer pump. Great to dream about but no where near the economy of modern gas/diesel marine motors

[JC Reefer]

Originally Posted by hzcruiser

Oh, well, let's leave it at that then and see what the future in energy storage has in store for us...

I think that is probably accurate.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by hzcruiser

Where is such a "fact" coming from, one wonders? Or in other words, how can a future being stated, not predicted, with a decent degree of accuracy?

Are you maybe a disguised time traveller? If so, how far into the future did you go to come up with this statement?

As Yogi bear says "predictions are difficult, especially about the future".

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by newhaul

simple physics .
On a 30 to 40 +/- ft sailboat there will not be any system that can store the energy density of diesel.
Hence you will either have diesel for actual propulsion or for power generation to be used for electric propulsion.
Simple fact a small vessel just doesn't have the room to devote to battery based storage of energy sufficient to propel the vessel at any reasonable speed for any significant period of time without a reliable source of additional power generation.

Quite interesting to read in some comments here:
“There will not be”
“Simple fact.... don’t have the room...”
“It will never...”

The humanity didn’t progress with this way of thinking... but it is ok, caves still exist...

I respect these opinions but nothing about our present life, including the ability to immaculately post opinions, pictures and videos without snail mailing VCR tapes from your local post office (while cruising somewhere in the northern Atlantic) suggests that electric or other non 100% diesel propulsion will not be a viable solution within few years.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Quite interesting to read in some comments here:
“There will not be”
“Simple fact.... don’t have the room...”
“It will never...”

The humanity didn’t progress with this way of thinking... but it is ok, caves still exist...

Exactly! And best of all, quoting "simple physics"... only leaves me baffled which law of physics I've missed that says we can only ever have a maximum of x kJ or MJ or kWh or BTUs or what-have-you stored on a boat of y feet in length...

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by hzcruiser

Exactly! And best of all, quoting "simple physics"... only leaves me baffled which law of physics I've missed that says we can only ever have a maximum of x kJ or MJ or kWh or BTUs or what-have-you stored on a boat of y feet in length...

And this week was the 313 Birthday of Benjamin Franklin. Good to remember that among many innovations he promoted was also the “Leiden electricity bottle” that is still the chemical concept of the wet batteries used today...

Do people believe that wet batteries are going to stay the-state-of-the-art in energy storage for another 280 years?...

Let’s remember him and other innovators along the history, maybe all the way to Elon Musk and stop explaining “why not...” and progress into “how yes...”

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by myocean

. . . Look at tug boats for example: Hybrid can save 30% of fuel.

That is interesting -- how? They are plug-in hybrids I guess? Link?

Originally Posted by myocean

Then, looking into the future, . . .. In general we will probably even have to accept, that certain lifestyles and even mobility, might become more expensive in future because the resources of the planet are limited. (This is what science says)

Science says that? I don't think so at all -- I think science says there are no inherent limitations, just technological challenges. We are surrounded by absolutely free and unlimited energy -- we just don't yet know how to get at it or store it efficiently. I think mobility will get cheaper and cheaper, not more expensive, as we crack these problems.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That is interesting -- how? They are plug-in hybrids I guess? Link?

*** short range, in harbor, are plugged in but for all kind of other reasons carry work service generators. Longer range tug boats usually use on board generators to maintain charging. There are a lot of links online.
***

Science says that? I don't think so at all -- I think science says there are no inherent limitations, just technological challenges. We are surrounded by absolutely free and unlimited energy -- we just don't yet know how to get at it or store it efficiently. I think mobility will get cheaper and cheaper, not more expensive, as we crack these problems.

***
Correct. Travel became way cheaper thanks to technology, market demand and the remaining very low cost of fossil energy. Thanks god, most of the world realized we cannot relay on fossil resources due to environmental effects and the diminishing reserves - most studies predict these to dry out in 50 years.

Renewed energy resources will have to dominant if the humanity wants to survive - and while not too many care about sailors propulsion the innovations focused at the ground mobility solutions will bring sailors with practical solutions. In fact, first well proven solutions are already here.
Here is another one:
https://youtu.be/KxWlgjxg1Bc

[myocean]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That is interesting -- how? They are plug-in hybrids I guess?

The background is that tug boats need enormous engines with peak power in the range of 5 MW. However, this is used only for very short periods of time during the day. Major marine engine manufacturers agree that this is highly inefficient (problematic working points) and any kind of hybrid or full electric solution is a lot more energy efficient which is why the future of tug boats will look differently.
This is certainly not the same when looking at vessels which are just humming along at constant speed, constant power all the time.
Detailed infos about this I can not share here due to business reasons.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think science says there are no inherent limitations, just technological challenges. We are surrounded by absolutely free and unlimited energy

You are right, sorry! I assumed a very limited technological progress and I might underestimate this quite a bit.