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Mickeyrouse · 09-12-2020, 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Funny , how come you don’t see threads ( on other forums ) like , I really want to build a bulldozer by starting off by buying a complete wreck and striping it etc

Yet it’s a “common “ occurrence with boats , I wonder why

There’s just no explaining poor judgement. I can only guess that the vast difference in cost of a new cruise-ready 45 footer vs. a partially finished hull of similar length is a big part of the problem, coupled with an unawareness of what boat work actually requires. Those that haven’t spent any time around boats but fall in love with the romance are extremely susceptible.
I remember the ferrocement craze of the sixties to mid-seventies. The phrase “concrete is SO MUCH CHEAPER than wood...or fiberglass...or steel” suckered a lot of naive wannabes. It was a hard lesson to learn that the cost of a hull was estimated by some in the boating press at the time to represent only about 10% of the total cost of a finished boat as completed. And no little part in those ferrocement boats was that though traditional wooden boatbuilding skills weren’t needed, other challenging skills were, such as iron-work for the frame and cement finishing for the application. And the result was.....something that could be prone to deterioration caused by sadly poor workmanship that stress cracked and which paint wouldn’t last on. You don’t see much ferrocement these days, thankfully, but I recall seeing partly completed ferrocement hulls in yards all over, usually with a new owner bragging about the incredible deal he got from the previous owner-builder “that got sick and had to sell it, almost finished.” I remember seeing a group of ferrocement boats in California abandoned by their various builders after reality and lack of funds set in. And in Florida. And Texas. And who knows where else? Those are sad stories, in which the material may be steel, or plywood, or fiberglass, but the ending is all too familiar.

MicHughV · 09-12-2020, 09:26

when I built my boat, I kept track of everything I spent on what..

out of the $20-odd K I had spent by the time I launched it....the hull and deck (steel) was about $5,000 in materials and about 9 months of work...keep in mind.....there were also a lot of consumables....electric for the welder, welding rods, oxy-acetylene gas, grinding discs, etc...and then the sand-blasting...and then the paint....all told.....probably about $10K (50%) before I could start tackling the interior..not to mention the cost of all the tools...and I had rented a spot to build it....so there was monthly rent to be paid...

while I was building my boat, I also got to know others building their boats...two trimarans, one fiberglass boat...one ferro-cement, several more steel boats..etc....
Several had to build a big shed to work under..more $$$....but their costs to build their hulls were similar to mine...maybe a bit more even....

I did all my own work...but some people had the hull fabricated for them....this adds labor costs...I had to hire a crane service to flip the hull over, as this was built upside-down....more $$$...also had to hire a crane service to launch it...$$$$

I often worked till midnight...pretty much 7 days a week....

These are late 70's, early 80's numbers...even after I launched it, I kept adding stuff as I could afford it....seem to recall I had about $60K in it, when I was finally done...and that excludes my labor....I worked for free...ha ha ha...

Out of the dozen odd home made boats I got to know...only one other, besides myself, did any cruising on it...

so these are some real time numbers..so taking the final $60K number, building the hull and deck represents about 17% of the overall costs.

finally, I should add....I did have help...getting to know all these other boatbuilders gave me an opportunity to ask a lot of " How do I do this" questions....

I was 26 when I started...just for funsies....I've added a pic of that boat...

Celestialsailor · 09-12-2020, 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickeyrouse

There’s just no explaining poor judgement. I can only guess that the vast difference in cost of a new cruise-ready 45 footer vs. a partially finished hull of similar length is a big part of the problem, coupled with an unawareness of what boat work actually requires. Those that haven’t spent any time around boats but fall in love with the romance are extremely susceptible.
I remember the ferrocement craze of the sixties to mid-seventies. The phrase “concrete is SO MUCH CHEAPER than wood...or fiberglass...or steel” suckered a lot of naive wannabes. It was a hard lesson to learn that the cost of a hull was estimated by some in the boating press at the time to represent only about 10% of the total cost of a finished boat as completed. And no little part in those ferrocement boats was that though traditional wooden boatbuilding skills weren’t needed, other challenging skills were, such as iron-work for the frame and cement finishing for the application. And the result was.....something that could be prone to deterioration caused by sadly poor workmanship that stress cracked and which paint wouldn’t last on. You don’t see much ferrocement these days, thankfully, but I recall seeing partly completed ferrocement hulls in yards all over, usually with a new owner bragging about the incredible deal he got from the previous owner-builder “that got sick and had to sell it, almost finished.” I remember seeing a group of ferrocement boats in California abandoned by their various builders after reality and lack of funds set in. And in Florida. And Texas. And who knows where else? Those are sad stories, in which the material may be steel, or plywood, or fiberglass, but the ending is all too familiar.

We use to have a saying about cement boats...One rock looking for another".

stormalong · 09-12-2020, 11:24

The OP has not been around for a while. He probably got tired of people poking holes in his plan.

MicHughV · 09-12-2020, 11:58

the one thing about building a boat with a small budget....is you soon build quite a talent to mooch things out...find the bargains....etc..if there was a cheaper way to do something...I'd find it...dumpster diving became my forte...etc.....
at the time I built my boat, there was no West Marine....there was Defender and a few others...but nothing local....parts came from all over the place...
sadly....building your own boat has a high attrition rate...while it may be your dream, in all likelihood, it will not be the dream of you wife, girlfriend, etc..there is a better than 50/50 chance you will be solo by the time you finish...

Lasivian · 09-12-2020, 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormalong

The OP has not been around for a while. He probably got tired of people poking holes in his plan.

No, I just have better things to do with my time than to argue with people on the internet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicHughV

there is a better than 50/50 chance you will be solo by the time you finish...

100% chance. I'm solo now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratchee

So my first piece of advice, which I think you have already heard from others, is to learn to sail. I don't think you can properly refurbish and maintain a sailboat without a significant understanding of how all the hardware works together.

Yes. This seems to be the biggest thing everyone thinks i'm "getting wrong". But they don't know "me". They just look at other people and think they can generalize. The same way they look at all the people who started a boat project and then backed out which means everyone else is likely doomed to fail too.

They also don't seem to think that there is any source to learn about sailing and sailboats except to actually sail. This feels akin to teaching a neursurgeon in no other way except to operate on a living human patient.

What information is needed? We can seperate this into two catagories.

#1 Critical Knowledge - This is what you need to know to not end up dead.

#2 General Knowledge - This information will save you money, time, gray hairs, marriages, bail money, jail time, etc.

People seem to spend no end of time complaining when someone seems to be lacking knowledge in catagory #2 that they seem to think belongs in catagory #1. Yet there is very little information that needs to be in catagory #1. (You constantly hear about idiots in boats being rescued. It seems very few actually end up dead these days. But I digress.)

And they act like someone else making mistakes or wasting time/money/effort is something they are entitled, nay responsible, for correcting or pointing out in various, and often insulting, ways.

A great example of this is here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...at-234699.html

Rather than saying "nope", multiple responses tended towards "We know better than to do something that stupid, and we're going to bloody tell you all about it because it won't work!"

I can rebuild, repair, refit, reinvent a boat. I can learn to sail. These will happen. Mistakes will happen, that's part of life.

Will I die doing it? Probably not, but it's my life to risk isn't it? I wouldn't be leaving anyone behind.

And no amount of internet know-it-alls are going to stop me just because they want to say "OMG! YOU'RE DOING IT ALL WRONG JUST BECAUSE WE THINK YOU SHOULD DO IT THIS WAY!" (Which is parsecs away from being useful criticism I might add)

But people seem to just want to waste their time repeating themselves.

C'est la guerre

AKA-None · 09-12-2020, 22:13

By the way surgeons do practice on people and they are called cadavers

Celestialsailor · 09-12-2020, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasivian

No, I just have better things to do with my time than to argue with people on the internet.

100% chance. I'm solo now.

Yes. This seems to be the biggest thing everyone thinks i'm "getting wrong". But they don't know "me". They just look at other people and think they can generalize. The same way they look at all the people who started a boat project and then backed out which means everyone else is likely doomed to fail too.

They also don't seem to think that there is any source to learn about sailing and sailboats except to actually sail. This feels akin to teaching a neursurgeon in no other way except to operate on a living human patient.

What information is needed? We can seperate this into two catagories.

#1 Critical Knowledge - This is what you need to know to not end up dead.

#2 General Knowledge - This information will save you money, time, gray hairs, marriages, bail money, jail time, etc.

People seem to spend no end of time complaining when someone seems to be lacking knowledge in catagory #2 that they seem to think belongs in catagory #1. Yet there is very little information that needs to be in catagory #1. (You constantly hear about idiots in boats being rescued. It seems very few actually end up dead these days. But I digress.)

And they act like someone else making mistakes or wasting time/money/effort is something they are entitled, nay responsible, for correcting or pointing out in various, and often insulting, ways.

A great example of this is here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...at-234699.html

Rather than saying "nope", multiple responses tended towards "We know better than to do something that stupid, and we're going to bloody tell you all about it because it won't work!"

I can rebuild, repair, refit, reinvent a boat. I can learn to sail. These will happen. Mistakes will happen, that's part of life.

Will I die doing it? Probably not, but it's my life to risk isn't it? I wouldn't be leaving anyone behind.

And no amount of internet know-it-alls are going to stop me just because they want to say "OMG! YOU'RE DOING IT ALL WRONG JUST BECAUSE WE THINK YOU SHOULD DO IT THIS WAY!" (Which is parsecs away from being useful criticism I might add)

But people seem to just want to waste their time repeating themselves.

C'est la guerre

You asked for thoughts and that is what you received. You can say you don't agree all you want. The reality is you don't like it. I will tell you that you are still living in your head.

Muaddib1116 · 09-12-2020, 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasivian

And they act like someone else making mistakes or wasting time/money/effort is something they are entitled, nay responsible, for correcting or pointing out in various, and often insulting, ways.

A great example of this is here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...at-234699.html

Rather than saying "nope", multiple responses tended towards "We know better than to do something that stupid, and we're going to bloody tell you all about it because it won't work!"

I just read through that, and I think only one person might have had a truly negative comment about it, almost everyone was discussing it as an interesting idea. You may be reading more animus into people's comments than is intended or actually there.

You may indeed be as smart, as driven, and as special as you say you are, and, as I've said, I think you should pursue whatever project you want, as long as it doesn't harm others. But you haven't addressed the issue of budget. What you propose almost definitely can't be done for less than $100k, let alone "way under". Maybe you have a lot of money already, or you're very confident that you can make more in whatever timeframe you need. We don't know, and who cares? That doesn't make the advise about the budgeting that people have given you wrong or useless. Nor is almost all of the other advise you've been given here.

Paul L · 09-12-2020, 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasivian

No, I just have better things to do with my time than to argue with people on the internet.

100% chance. I'm solo now.

Yes. This seems to be the biggest thing everyone thinks i'm "getting wrong". But they don't know "me". They just look at other people and think they can generalize. The same way they look at all the people who started a boat project and then backed out which means everyone else is likely doomed to fail too.

They also don't seem to think that there is any source to learn about sailing and sailboats except to actually sail. This feels akin to teaching a neursurgeon in no other way except to operate on a living human patient.

What information is needed? We can seperate this into two catagories.

#1 Critical Knowledge - This is what you need to know to not end up dead.

#2 General Knowledge - This information will save you money, time, gray hairs, marriages, bail money, jail time, etc.

People seem to spend no end of time complaining when someone seems to be lacking knowledge in catagory #2 that they seem to think belongs in catagory #1. Yet there is very little information that needs to be in catagory #1. (You constantly hear about idiots in boats being rescued. It seems very few actually end up dead these days. But I digress.)

And they act like someone else making mistakes or wasting time/money/effort is something they are entitled, nay responsible, for correcting or pointing out in various, and often insulting, ways.

A great example of this is here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...at-234699.html

Rather than saying "nope", multiple responses tended towards "We know better than to do something that stupid, and we're going to bloody tell you all about it because it won't work!"

I can rebuild, repair, refit, reinvent a boat. I can learn to sail. These will happen. Mistakes will happen, that's part of life.

Will I die doing it? Probably not, but it's my life to risk isn't it? I wouldn't be leaving anyone behind.

And no amount of internet know-it-alls are going to stop me just because they want to say "OMG! YOU'RE DOING IT ALL WRONG JUST BECAUSE WE THINK YOU SHOULD DO IT THIS WAY!" (Which is parsecs away from being useful criticism I might add)

But people seem to just want to waste their time repeating themselves.

C'est la guerre

If you hadn't of put unrealistic cost constraints on the project then perhaps you would have got more suitable to you responses. It is easy to suggest boats, electric drives, batteries and the like to help you meet your stated goals - if the budget is reasonable. In this case something needs to move. The budget, the wants, the experience. Most likely all 3.

Yihang · 09-12-2020, 23:44

People only get defensive if they doubt themselves.

sailorboy1 · 10-12-2020, 04:52

Reminds me of the song line - don't ask me what I think of you, you might not get the answer you wanted to

To the OP, you go ahead and do. You got your ASKED FOR feedback and feel everyone is wrong. Now the ball is in your court to prove them wrong.

Are you feeling lucky kid?

goboatingnow · 10-12-2020, 05:13

Well a few chandleries will do well from this at least

Yellowtulip · 10-12-2020, 09:31

OP. You contradict yourself. You say in your post that you want to avoid major pitfalls and you want to sail around the world.
Building a boat for comfort and disregarding the essentials required to cross oceans (meaning sail plan, rigging, motive power etc.) is a MAJOR PITFALL, as many thoroughly experienced people have told you. If you don't have ocean crossing in mind when you specify your boat you will regret it. Ocean-crossing seaworthiness is critical.