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Old 25-01-2022, 20:34   #1
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UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Thanks to all who responded to the original post. Here's a significant update. The boat in question is a 1984 Gulfstar 44 Mk ii. See the picture. There's a crack at the aft edge of the keel, where it meets the hull. The crack was patched, and has now reappeared. The owner confesses to a "soft" grounding. My concern--this is exactly where the rotational forces on the keel would show up after a grounding. It pushes the back of the keel up right?

The surveyor noted it as a deficiency and said to repair it, but did not seem otherwise concerned, and gave a survey value within $24 of what I offered. A little suspicious to me...

Would YOU run away? Would you trust the owner to hire the repair done, if it had already been patched once a reappeared? Or would you get an independent estimate and ask for an price allowance?
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Old 25-01-2022, 20:44   #2
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

My experience has been that grounding pushes the aft end of the keel up as you said. But the real damage, if any, is inside the bilge above the aft end. What does that look like?
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Old 25-01-2022, 20:45   #3
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

First, where did you find the surveyor. Check around. You want to make sure he is both good and independent and didn’t miss other points. I’d get an estimate and a price adjustment. I wouldn’t count on the seller to do more than a cosmetic fix as that may all he did when he fixed it the first time.
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Old 25-01-2022, 21:05   #4
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Totally my opinion with little experience on this issue but when people put a patch on things and don't fix them right the first time, it kinda suggests how other things were dealt with that you haven't yet uncovered. I'd walk unless the deal is worth it to fix it correctly and you can get another "expert" opinion on the state of the boat. That you're questioning a possible coincidence with your first surveyor sounds like your gut poking you. I tend not to discount those niggling feelings.
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Old 25-01-2022, 21:30   #5
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Run away, run away, run very far away.

There are plenty of good boats out there. Hull repairs like that need the attention of experts. Paint can though cover many issues. And $24 to repair in a survey report, that's clearly no more than the cost of paint and brush. It all smells fishy bad.
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Old 25-01-2022, 21:33   #6
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Wow ! That looks like a significant crack. I'd want to see a seriously close examination of all structural elements supporting that keel fore and aft.

I've surveyed several Gulfstar 43's but never a 44.
Is the fuel tank FRP and in the keel like most other gulfstars (power & sail) ? I've seen these punctured on one 36 and one 43 from impacts.

Were all the floor boards pulled at survey to inspect all structural elements ?
I would not buy this boat unless I was sure this was done and done thoroughly.

I'd also want that crack uncovered and opened up for close inspection before handing over any money.
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Old 25-01-2022, 21:37   #7
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Even in this picture you can clearly see the entire area is poorly patched, meaning the damage is probably much wider than what you see. Given the additional information about the owner and surveyor, I would only agree to a price where my boatyard is doing the repair - not the owner and the cost is deducted from the payment in escrow. Remember that after the repair opens up and grind all areas they may find other hidden surprises...

Considering this you may suspect other areas and systems were not well maintained and it doesn't look like the surveyor can be trusted on that either.
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Old 25-01-2022, 22:13   #8
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Unfortunately I think you need to start the repair, to determine how bad it is and what it is going to cost to repair. And having him to the repair? Well, you see his or his contractor's first attempt. Looks to just be a coverup.

I would certainly give up on this one.
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Old 26-01-2022, 04:48   #9
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Is it just me, or do others see evidence of much larger repair beneath the bottom paint? Doesn't sound like the owner has been straight with you. This should have been an insurable event but wasn't properly repaired.

Boatpoker is a surveyor and was generous enough to give very actionable advice.

What an awful market for buyers. Having to even consider this to move forward. Really unfortunate.

Personally, this damage, even if repaired, would haunt me forever.

Good luck. I really think you'd be best served by cutting your losses and walking away. Sad part is the owner will likely do a BS cosmetic repair to conceal the crack from the next buyer.

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Old 26-01-2022, 07:43   #10
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Thanks for all the thoughts!

Yes, the owner disclosed that the crack was previously repaired. He had the boat surveyed in 2020, in prep for selling, and the crack was in that survey, and the initial repair had been done immediately after the survey. He was unaware of it before that. The owner had his "soft grounding." after that repair. Obviously, not repaired well. From all other aspects of maintenance, the owner is NOT a half-way kinda guy, and was dismayed at the reappearance of the crack and wants to repair it properly, on his dime, knowing it would come up in future purchases if I walk.

Boatpoker, yes, all floorboards were pulled. I had another conversation with the surveyor. His thoughts were, it appears that the crack is not structural, or it would have showed up in prop shaft alignment. All aspects of the prop shaft are really good. Stringers in the engine compartment go far aft of the damage. That may have helped localize the damage.

I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that there is a fiberglass tank in the keel. Don't know the boat that well. Certainly a point of concern.

My current thought, given that the owner appears to want to repair properly, is to specify that i have the right to inspect after the grind out of the repair area, and that the repair is to be done to the same layout schedule as the original scantlings, or if those aren't available, equivalent new-boat schedule. I have the right to inspect mid-repair to verify.

Additional thoughts/opinions welcome.
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Old 26-01-2022, 08:35   #11
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

this is the rear (aft) end of the keel, right? Could it be the grounding was "in reverse"? This looks like a "front-end-damage" to me...
If the boat was in the water for any length of time with these cracks, the laminate will have absorbed a lot of water which will show up with heavy "osmosis" later (apart from all the other problems). Somebody using their boat or trying to sell in that condition is either a crook or, more likely, has zero knowledge of boats resulting in who-knows what else he did to it.
RUN!
(do not try to trick yourself with the argument "they know nothing but this one picture of the boat, yet say "run"!" This one picture is enough. If this were the last boat on earth & be located just around the corner I wouldn't go & look at it, that would be a waste of time.)
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Old 26-01-2022, 09:33   #12
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Dave - given the limited visual information, it is hard to say. Need bilge and tankage, if in the bilge, imaging and more images along the keel hull joint area - especially as it is an encapsulated keel - meaning the keel encapsulation could be somewhat part of the hull or externally attached and compressed into the hull and then further laminated all around - not sure Gulfstar had that technology back in the 80's.

Meaning, a crack as shown can be just part of the encapsulation or get further into the hull. At any case a wide opening is needed, grinding along the keel-hull joint and checking for the possibility of water locked inside, which will require more work, draining and drying before any repair job can start - consider this with your expected schedule.

Even if the damage is limited to the shown area, the repair will need to rebuild new skin at least 12x away from the actual crack to all directions with multiple laminates and probably an injection of G-Flex, if there are voids behind. A good repair by a real pro, (beware, there are a lot of unprofessionals out there) including some overheads, could start anywhere from ~$15K.

As for the "surveyor" response on the (no) structural damage, this is of course a BS if not worse. The damage is at the front of the keel/hull joint, unless the hull is totally damaged, this would not have any effect on the prop shaft alignment, some 20' back...

Best of luck - Gulfstar 44 (Mark II) has a great design and if in a good shape could be a good buy, but make sure there are no hidden issues, as each one could potentially cost ~20% of the boat value.
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Old 26-01-2022, 09:41   #13
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Quote:
As for the "surveyor" response on the (no) structural damage, this is of course a BS if not worse. The damage is at the front of the keel/hull joint, unless the hull is totally damaged, this would not have any effect on the prop shaft alignment, some 20' back...
You misunderstand--the crack is at the AFT of the keel. Definitely between the engine and prop.
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Old 26-01-2022, 10:46   #14
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Strange a seller would leave something like that exposed.
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Old 26-01-2022, 11:04   #15
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Re: UPDATE: Reduce Offer After Survey?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_R View Post
You misunderstand--the crack is at the AFT of the keel. Definitely between the engine and prop.
As suggested more pictures could help, but anyway, according to this file the engine seats right above the cracked aft area of the keel/hull joint.
http://www.jordanyachts.com/wp-conte.../gulfstari.pdf

Still, judging a possible structural damage by evaluating the prop shaft alignment, means nothing. The grounding impact can be limited to that area only or effect to the forward along the keel/hull joint. Without an exact understanding of the actual grounding story and as noted earlier, there is a need for a more comprehensive study plus physical removal of the laminate in and around the damaged area to better understand the extent of the damage.
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