40ft sloop refit questions

[Clemroc]

Hi all,

I recently landed on a (possibly amazing) opportunity to receive a 1990 Morgan Outisland 40ft free of cost. But it's a project boat on the hard.

The good:
- Hull was surveyed and is solid
- Sails are fair
- Hard rigging and mast are fine (mast unstepped)
- Cabinets and cushions in great condition
- Interior is pristine
- Anchor and 150ft of chain + windlass
- All winches in good condition

The bad:
- No running rigging
- No batteries
- No engine
- No fridge or sink
- One of the 2 toilets has been removed (same goes for holding tank)
- No bilge pump
- Electrical wiring needs to be redone

Granted, this is a big project. But I know that other than the engine, as a handy DIY guy, I can do the rest myself.

My questions are regarding recent-ish cost estimates for the supplies.
Also, how many meters (or feet) of lines would I need to replace all running rigging?

Cheers,

[shrspeedblade]

A few questions I would advise in my (admittedly) limited experience:

How many sailboats have you owned? This would be a terrible first boat (or even second) IMO.

There are people who like sailing, and people who like just working on their boat. Indefinitely. Do you know which you are?

What are your plans for this boat? Getting it ready for daysailing/weekending would be a bit different/cheaper than cruising ready.

If you like the idea of a project, that you almost do everything yourself and make it "your boat", that takes YEARS longer than you anticipate and costs far more $10000s than just buying a nearly ready-to-go boat when you're ready to go cruising then by all means go for it!

Edit: The only thing on your BAD list that would really bother me is the engine and electrical, everything else is just maintenance or will break anyway. Assume the standing rigging needs replacement as well.

[Clemroc]

Thanks for your answer @shrspeedblade !

I haven't owned any sailboats, and I know that Morgans tend to have subpar sailing performance - but I'm not aiming to race regattas!

I like sailing and I like fixing things. I also feel more comfortable knowing the boat inside-out (and knowing that the work has been done properly, without cutting corners).

Regarding the costs, I am well aware it will be costly (several tens of thousands). Regarding time and effort, I would be able to work on it full-time because I will be off-work for 6 months; this should allow me to do most of the big things.

Finally, my plans (which kept getting postponed since 2018) is to take my time sailing across the Caribbean, from Florida to Colombia, over several months. However, I am in no rush. I am comfortable with bringing the boat up to "weekending" quality before doing more upgrades to turn it into a blue-water cruiser.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Clemroc

Thanks for your answer @shrspeedblade !

I haven't owned any sailboats, and I know that Morgans tend to have subpar sailing performance - but I'm not aiming to race regattas!

I like sailing and I like fixing things. I also feel more comfortable knowing the boat inside-out (and knowing that the work has been done properly, without cutting corners).

Regarding the costs, I am well aware it will be costly (several tens of thousands). Regarding time and effort, I would be able to work on it full-time because I will be off-work for 6 months; this should allow me to do most of the big things.

Finally, my plans (which kept getting postponed since 2018) is to take my time sailing across the Caribbean, from Florida to Colombia, over several months. However, I am in no rush. I am comfortable with bringing the boat up to "weekending" quality before doing more upgrades to turn it into a blue-water cruiser.

Don't knock Morgans... They need a bit of wind to get going, but if you learn how to sail a long keel ketch, they're not really that slow. If you try to sail it like a fin keel spade rudder boat, you're gonna have problems. I've had mine (OI 41) for 8 years and it sails fairly well for a big heavy fat boat! Good condition sails that aren't blown out make a huge difference. Also these boats need to be sailed on their feet. If you push her over, she will reward you with a lot of leeway as her shallow keel looses its grip.

There is an active Morgan OI group on facebook. Join us there, lots of resources and help to be had from us owners.

I've completely rewired, replumbed, repowered, rerigged, etc. my OI and there is still more to do (I have some deck work to do this winter)

[jordanbigel]

- Hard rigging and mast are fine (mast unstepped)

This is called "Standing Rigging" and how do you know it's fine? Is it original - ie. 33 years old? Wire rigging has a lifespan of 8-12 years. Any older, probability wise, it is probably only safe for pottering around in good weather near to shore. Over 20 years old there is really no question, it has to be replaced.

Also related are chainplates - the metal bits the rigging attaches to - if this boat is like most, they are decades old and need to be replaced also.

You are almost better off with the things on your "bad" list which simply do not exist, because you know you have to replace them and the replacements will be brand new. The things which are already on the boat which you evaluate to be "good" are where the real trouble lies in my view.

I hesitate to estimate cost to re-fit this boat, but I'd assume a minimum $75k to get this boat ready for the Caribbean, possibly much more if you go with a full suite of instruments, radar/AIS, etc. (which you should have) and if you have to pay someone to do the work. But the OI40 is a great boat. If you have the coin, and you like a project, it could work out fine in the end.

For questions like how much line, you really need to cost it out piece by piece - you can find the appx lengths of each piece of running rigging from the boat's designs (ie. knowing the mast height you can determine halyard length, etc., etc. - also recommend looking on Facebook for a Morgan owners group then you can ask questions like that to an audience of people who likely have the same boat and know the answer.

[shrspeedblade]

If the boat was for sale for $17k but had a recently installed, new(ish) good running diesel and didn't need to be rewired, would you still buy it?

[Cheechako]

Well, pristine boats are still maintenance hogs.
But that sounds doable, you need to find an engine and also be sure to check condition of the fuel and water tanks! They are often big problems on old boats. Some are not readily removable for replacement.

Realize you may have a couple of years of work to do if you keep at it. Get the engine done and get it in the water or you are going to get overwhelmed fast.

[pcmm]

for running rigging you can get it all done with a 600' roll of 7/16 double braid.

Genoa & main halyard take about 120' each
mizzen halyard 90' ish
2 x 60 for the genoa sheets
80' for the main sheet
60' for mizzen

when I replaced my standing rigging it cost me around $6k including a new furler. I just took all the stays to a shop and had them replicate.

Engine cost me around $12k to do with a ebuilt yanmar, a great deal on a trans and all my work to fab new mounts, exhaust, prop,etc.

Sails were $12k

wiring, I'm probably in for $15k right now

dodger and bimini - $6k

and on and on.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Clemroc

- No running rigging

Ballpark figure 600-800 feet of rope in the lines on the boat by the time you include a spin halyard, some mooring lines, and odds and ends like traveler control lines and a preventer, and a spinnaker halyard and pole uphaul, which you might have even if you don't anticipate using a spinnaker. Spinnaker guys and sheets adds quite a lot.



Splicing is a considerable part of the cost (25%) unless you're planning to do it yourself.


Running rigging technically includes things like blocks, sheaves, and clutches, not just line. If all that is gone or shot then it too will be a significant expense.

- No batteries
- No engine
- No fridge or sink
- One of the 2 toilets has been removed (same goes for holding tank)
- No bilge pump
- Electrical wiring needs to be redone

Granted, this is a big project. But I know that other than the engine, as a handy DIY guy, I can do the rest myself.

My questions are regarding recent-ish cost estimates for the supplies.

Think in terms of $20k installed for the engine.


Typically it is unwise to replace all existing electrical wiring but if you replace all electrical wiring and components throughout the boat, including shore power receptacles, lighting, pumps, battery charger, panels, you will spend at least $5000. Basic electronics -- a VHF, depth finder, chart plotter, radar, wind instrument -- will be another $4000-$5000 in materials. Autopilot will add more.


Galley, depends on your taste and what you start with, easy to spend $5000.



Expect to replace all tankage.
Expect to rebed all deck fittings.
Expect to replace lifelines.
Expect to replace standing rigging.



Is there a furler for the jib/Genoa?
What about the range and propane system?
What about canvas -- Dodger, bimini, covers?
What about upholstery?
Are the hatches and portlights in good condition?
What about the propshaft, seal, cutless, and prop?


I've looked at free boats and concluded that I couldn't afford them...

[Enfant Du Vent]

Ahoy Clemroc:
Used to own an OI-41.

Here's an item you REALLY should deal with: the engine exhaust line out to the transom.

Be sure to end up with an "anti siphon" loop that is quite high. This prevents water flowing back into the engine / engine room if water starts to flow in from the stern.
I didn't upgrade the factory setup so water s-l-o-w-l-y seeped in when I was tied up at my slip with stern to the waves. Eventually the boat sank--luckily in only 3-4 feet of water.
PS: Other owners may know of just how this problem should be dealt with.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Enfant Du Vent

Ahoy Clemroc:
Used to own an OI-41.

Here's an item you REALLY should deal with: the engine exhaust line out to the transom.

Be sure to end up with an "anti siphon" loop that is quite high. This prevents water flowing back into the engine / engine room if water starts to flow in from the stern.
I didn't upgrade the factory setup so water s-l-o-w-l-y seeped in when I was tied up at my slip with stern to the waves. Eventually the boat sank--luckily in only 3-4 feet of water.
PS: Other owners may know of just how this problem should be dealt with.

Sounds like someone edited your exhaust before you got your Morgan (its not an issue that us Morgan's are aware of). My OI had its original exhaust and engine when I got it and the Original "anti-siphon" loop runs to a peak somewhere above the cockpit sole (inside the engine room). I've since repowered and increased the hieght of that anti-siphon loop to its max which is about level with the stbd cockpit seat, which isn't easy to do with the 3inch hose yanmar calls for!

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by Clemroc

Hi all,

I recently landed on a (possibly amazing) opportunity to receive a 1990 Morgan Outisland 40ft free of cost. But it's a project boat on the hard.

The good:
- Hull was surveyed and is solid
- Sails are fair
- Hard rigging and mast are fine (mast unstepped)
- Cabinets and cushions in great condition
- Interior is pristine
- Anchor and 150ft of chain + windlass
- All winches in good condition

The bad:
- No running rigging
- No batteries
- No engine
- No fridge or sink
- One of the 2 toilets has been removed (same goes for holding tank)
- No bilge pump
- Electrical wiring needs to be redone

Granted, this is a big project. But I know that other than the engine, as a handy DIY guy, I can do the rest myself.

My questions are regarding recent-ish cost estimates for the supplies.
Also, how many meters (or feet) of lines would I need to replace all running rigging?

Cheers,

I just spent the last 4 years rebuilding a Spencer 42 sloop, 1966 build.



I paid 34k for the boat with an almost brand new Yanmar 4JH3E in it. Total right now including insurance and boat yard I am around $165,000 and have not replaced the standing or running rigging or sails.

I did do all new plumbing, electrical, through hulls, etc, and had a bear of a bottom job removing a previous owners home brew copper coat, then fixing the damage underneath.

I have now what is an absolutely solid sailing boat, that I could sell for 80-100k.

The thing you have to understand is how boats are constructed and what you are looking at putting time into, and that Morgan is not one I would put time into because they are a cheaply built mass production boat.

They spit them off the factory line as fast as they could, and they were never known for being of exceptional quality. Ironically there was one in the slip next to me in Tacoma where I bought my boat, it sailed so poorly that the owners never really took it out, it sat at the dock and languished turning into a barge that eventually pickled, which I suspect is probably what happened to the one you are looking at.

Fixing up a boat is fun, but it is also expensive and you will not see a return on the money you put in. The money you shovel at a boat in the end if you do not get to enjoy the boat is money wasted!

If you want to fix up a boat, you need to find something of a better pedigree because a cheap boat like a Morgan is going to want for more fixing in the long run than one that is well built, especially if things like the hull to deck joint let go and need to be re-bedded, which is an extremely time consuming and expensive process, and if not done the boat will take on water through that joint.


Just for the big ticket items you have listed here:
$20,000 - Engine
$10,000 - Rigging

You can count on another 20k in parts for the installation, hoses, through hulls etc.

By the time you buy everything you need to replace one through hull, the fitting, the 3 bolt flange a valve and a hose barb, you have chewed through anywhere from $150-600.00 depending on the size of the fitting.

The hose you will be putting onto that fitting is going for between $6 and $20 per foot.

Then there are the hidden costs, like sandpaper, on my boat I went through 8 boxes of 40 grit Abranets at $45 each. That was just for the bottom job from hell, but that was an unplanned cost, and boats take a lot of sanding!

As well to work on the boat in the boat yard I had to buy a proper dust collector vacuum with a hepa filter, that cost me $700 and the big sander was another $350, then there was the respirator $200 and tyvek suits, I spent about $300 on those.

That is $1,550 just in materials to sand my bottom.

Then you have to consider the cost of the boat yard it's self.

To have my boat on the hard in Port Townsend it cost $1,100 a month just to sit on the dirt there but power was included, some yards charge for power as well.

That is $13,200 a year just to have a place to work on the boat.

I was there for 3 years on the hard before finishing the rest in the water.

When I look at the Morgan you have described I see a boat that a guy can easily make $2-300k disappear into and have a boat that in the end is worth $50?!

And then it is not a great sailboat.

If you are going to spend that kind of money, at least do it on a great sailboat that when you are done can take you places and is well suited to the open ocean.

I am up in Alaska on mine right now enjoying the fruits of my labor and I have no regrets, but I started with an amazing boat that is like a well practiced dancer under sail and loves the open ocean and has wonderful manners in big swells.

A boat like a Morgan was built to serve as the family camper with sails, and many of them were put into charter service where the people on them only had to put up with them for a week or two at a time. You will also notice that most people out sailing the big ocean are doing it on another make of boat, especially those who have been doing it for years!

In my time in the boat yard I saw many people come in with their big plans of fixing up that free boat just like you are, but in the end they threw a bunch of money at it, and then abandoned it when the costs got out of hand.

I have seen people throw tens of thousands of dollars at boats only to watch them get broken up and stuffed in a dumpster later on when they discover the project will never put to sea again.

If this is really your dream what I recommend is finding a boat that is in the water you can sail now, spend some time sailing it, learning it, growing with it and learning what it needs to make you happy, then rebuild it.

This is what I did with mine and I credit having done this for why it is that I am having such a pleasurable experience today. It seems to me that so many boats that people buy and begin working on right away never see the water again, and if they do they often suffer heart break because they discover that much of the work they did to them was wasted!

Moral of the story is fixing up a boat can be a lot of fun, actually finishing the project and getting to enjoy it is even more fun.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

A boat like a Morgan was built to serve as the family camper with sails, and many of them were put into charter service where the people on them only had to put up with them for a week or two at a time. You will also notice that most people out sailing the big ocean are doing it on another make of boat, especially those who have been doing it for years!

I agree with 99% of what you said except the above... You have to remember that the OI was last made in any great quantity over 35 years ago. a lot of other 40 fters have been built since then so it reasonable that most people would be out there sailing other boats. It doesn't say anything negative about OI's other than that designs have evolved and other boats have been built to replace it. The OI was the Beneteau Moorings of its day. its got the exact same design brief as the Moorings 43 (AKA cyclades) house a lot of people, let them founce around for a week or two "sailing" and then motor back to base.

The thing with an OI is its a heavy full keeled boat and most people don't know how to sail that type (because its not representative of modern designs) , and then claim it sails poorly.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by pcmm

I agree with 99% of what you said except the above... You have to remember that the OI was last made in any great quantity over 35 years ago. a lot of other 40 fters have been built since then so it reasonable that most people would be out there sailing other boats. It doesn't say anything negative about OI's other than that designs have evolved and other boats have been built to replace it. The OI was the Beneteau Moorings of its day. its got the exact same design brief as the Moorings 43 (AKA cyclades) house a lot of people, let them founce around for a week or two "sailing" and then motor back to base.

The thing with an OI is its a heavy full keeled boat and most people don't know how to sail that type (because its not representative of modern designs) , and then claim it sails poorly.

They are heavy, and they are a mass production boat where a lot of corners get cut to keep the costs down.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/morgan-out-island-41/

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/spencer-42/

You also have a sail area to displacement ratio of 11.96 where as my S42 has 16.8

Similar size rig on them, but the S42 is only 11'4" on the beam, the Morgan is 13.82' giving it a Displacement of 27,000lbs where as the Spencer is 19,000!

The morgan being a foot shorter in LOA, 2' on the LWL but 2' fatter makes her a barge. Great for chilling at the dock or at anchor, but when you want to go sailing, you're gonna be going sloooow.

The Morgan has 775.63 ft² sail area, my S42 745.50 ft², so you're talking a boat with a marginally bigger rig, but with 2/3 the SA2D ratio.

I am not saying the Morgan is a bad boat, I would rather have it than no boat, but what I am saying is if a guy wants to spend the money fixing up a boat, there are many much better sailing and more well constructed options out there.

I think until you have had the joy of sailing a boat like this you don't fully understand, because that being said, if you gave me a brand new Benetau, I would sell it and put the money into this boat.

That is because any advantage a light weight boat like a Beneteau has in light air is lost once we step off shore or the winds are above 15 knots. With their light keel they cannot carry as much canvas as long as I can. I can keep a full main and 130% genoa up to 20 knots and she runs like a scalded dog! (also because this boat in particular has an extra 2' of mast and an extra 1,000 lbs of ballast in her keel)

Granted when you get where you are going there is more living room onboard, which is why they built them the way they did, so the people chartering them could be comfortable.

By the virtue of that design however, I would not want to take it long distance cruising because it's gonna spend a lot of time motoring until the winds run over 12-15 knots and it is going to run substantially slower than many other boats.

For instance yesterday I covered 66nm in just under 9.5 hours, it was a pretty easy day.

A few weeks back I drove from Hartley Bay BC to Prince Rupert in one shot, motored the whole way and still did it in 11 hours, it was 76NM.

She is also incredibly nimble under sail, at times I dock her under sail. When people see you do that with a 42' sailboat and make it look easy, they are prone to give you a round of applause!

That is the joy of having a true blue sailing boat that the engine was stuffed in the design as an after thought to her sailing characteristics.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

They are heavy, and they are a mass production boat where a lot of corners get cut to keep the costs down.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/morgan-out-island-41/

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/spencer-42/

You also have a sail area to displacement ratio of 11.96 where as my S42 has 16.8

Similar size rig on them, but the S42 is only 11'4" on the beam, the Morgan is 13.82' giving it a Displacement of 27,000lbs where as the Spencer is 19,000!

The morgan being a foot shorter in LOA, 2' on the LWL but 2' fatter makes her a barge. Great for chilling at the dock or at anchor, but when you want to go sailing, you're gonna be going sloooow.

The Morgan has 775.63 ft² sail area, my S42 745.50 ft², so you're talking a boat with a marginally bigger rig, but with 2/3 the SA2D ratio.

I am not saying the Morgan is a bad boat, I would rather have it than no boat, but what I am saying is if a guy wants to spend the money fixing up a boat, there are many much better sailing and more well constructed options out there.

I think until you have had the joy of sailing a boat like this you don't fully understand, because that being said, if you gave me a brand new Benetau, I would sell it and put the money into this boat.

That is because any advantage a light weight boat like a Beneteau has in light air is lost once we step off shore or the winds are above 15 knots. With their light keel they cannot carry as much canvas as long as I can. I can keep a full main and 130% genoa up to 20 knots and she runs like a scalded dog! (also because this boat in particular has an extra 2' of mast and an extra 1,000 lbs of ballast in her keel)

Granted when you get where you are going there is more living room onboard, which is why they built them the way they did, so the people chartering them could be comfortable.

By the virtue of that design however, I would not want to take it long distance cruising because it's gonna spend a lot of time motoring until the winds run over 12-15 knots and it is going to run substantially slower than many other boats.

For instance yesterday I covered 66nm in just under 9.5 hours, it was a pretty easy day.

A few weeks back I drove from Hartley Bay BC to Prince Rupert in one shot, motored the whole way and still did it in 11 hours, it was 76NM.

She is also incredibly nimble under sail, at times I dock her under sail. When people see you do that with a 42' sailboat and make it look easy, they are prone to give you a round of applause!

That is the joy of having a true blue sailing boat that the engine was stuffed in the design as an after thought to her sailing characteristics.

So the thing with Sailboatdata.com is the data for the OI's are all over the place! and some of it wrong. You happened to compare your Spencer (Which is a nice boat) against the original Morgan OI sloop which is a fairly uncommon rig for the OI. Most of them were Ketches and the 414, 415 or 416 model. On those the SA/D ratio is in the 15ish range. She'll never be a race horse or point particularly high to windward but she will hold her own. and they don't take 12-15knts to get going. You'r right in that they are heavy boats so take time to get momentum going and you really don't have to reef until 20 knots. but I've regularely got 4+ knots on a 7-8knot breeze which is perfectly fine by me.. This is because they don't have 792sqrft of sail area. Its actually almost 900 (again sailboat data is al over this place on this considering the rig was the same until the 416 model!!)

Offshore atributes are great but 90%+ of people don't spend their time offshore, mostly its coastal type cruising and sailing. and for that, have the ability to sail decently, have room down below, on deck AND a full size berth in the aft cabin are all winners for me.

I completely agree with you on the beneteau canoe bottom issue. I would do the same they are great in light air but pound once it gets sporty and thats just uncomfortable