U.S. West Coast "Pirates"

[S/V Illusion]

Then understand this - the level of poverty has been far worse historically so that is a frivolous and unfounded excuse for the high crime rate. What has changed is the lack of enforcement, the ambivalence of the courts to punish criminal behavior, the weakening of penalties and decrease in law enforcement personnel.

And in the case of california and some other infamous states, laws which make it difficult for people to defend themselves.

[Chotu]

It’s a cultural problem. These people were raised to think it’s ok to steal.

Personally, the more our society evolves, the more I think the Muslims and Arabs (much older civilizations with lots of experience) have it right.

Caught stealing? Cut off the hand. It would certainly slow theft down quite a bit.

Alternatively, for those wanting to keep it soft on crime, we need to change the culture we created. It can’t be fixed in this generation, but maybe the next.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Then understand this - the level of poverty has been far worse historically so that is a frivolous and unfounded excuse for the high crime rate. What has changed is the lack of enforcement, the ambivalence of the courts to punish criminal behavior, the weakening of penalties and decrease in law enforcement personnel.

And in the case of california and some other infamous states, laws which make it difficult for people to defend themselves.

This may indeed be part of the explanation as well. None of which is relevant to my actual point, which was (he says again) that calling this “piracy” is just sensational clickbait.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Chotu

It’s a cultural problem. These people were raised to think it’s ok to steal.

Caught stealing? Cut off the hand. It would certainly slow theft down quite a bit.

Most civilized societies have found better ways to deal with this “cultural problem.”

Originally Posted by Chotu

Alternatively, for those wanting to keep it soft on crime, we need to change the culture we created. It can’t be fixed in this generation, but maybe the next.

Agreed.

But again, the point I was making was that calling this piracy is needless sensationalism. It’s property crime, driven by multiple reason (does that make the triggered amongst you — not you Chotu — feel better?)

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This may indeed be part of the explanation as well. None of which is relevant to my actual point, which was (he says again) that calling this “piracy” is just sensational clickbait.

May be???

I think most of us are focused on the sociopathic behavior, the reasons for it and the lack of capability or prevention actions by the state and local government than on semantics but piracy is generally defined as the “act of attacking or robbing boats”, a seemingly fitting label.

[Jammer]

Words are important, and are most effective when used with precision. Let us review:


Piracy is the "any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew of the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft. . . on the high seas against another ship or aircraft." [UNESCO] Acts that take place in coastal waters are, ipso facto, not piracy.


Robbery has many definitions but most broadly it is the taking of property or other things of value using force, the threat of force, or fear.


Theft or Larceny also have many definitions but are more general words describing the taking and transporting of another person's property.


People who steal unoccupied boats from a dock or mooring commit the crime of theft (or, in some jurisdictions, larceny). In California (where the events described in the OP took place), theft of an unoccupied boat from a dock or mooring is ordinarily charged under 487, "Grand Theft."


Theft of boats is a serious crime and an increasingly common one in certain areas. It should not be necessary apply exaggerated and inflammatory labels (like piracy) when discussing it.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Words are important, and are most effective when used with precision. Let us review:


Piracy is the "any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew of the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft. . . on the high seas against another ship or aircraft." [UNESCO] Acts that take place in coastal waters are, ipso facto, not piracy.


Robbery has many definitions but most broadly it is the taking of property or other things of value using force, the threat of force, or fear.


Theft or Larceny also have many definitions but are more general words describing the taking and transporting of another person's property.


People who steal unoccupied boats from a dock or mooring commit the crime of theft (or, in some jurisdictions, larceny). In California (where the events described in the OP took place), theft of an unoccupied boat from a dock or mooring is ordinarily charged under 487, "Grand Theft."


Theft of boats is a serious crime and an increasingly common one in certain areas. It should not be necessary apply exaggerated and inflammatory labels (like piracy) when discussing it.

Sigh…

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Most civilized societies have found better ways to deal with this “cultural problem.”




Agreed.

But again, the point I was making was that calling this piracy is needless sensationalism. It’s property crime, driven by multiple reason (does that make the triggered amongst you — not you Chotu — feel better?)

OK, but we modern and inexperienced new civilizations have very few generations under our belts and I don’t think people are really any different now than they were then. People are animals. We are animals. We have all of the emotions and issues that animals have. We haven’t changed or evolved much in a few hundred years. Just some of the laws we live under have changed. And some of the upbringing.

These advanced civilized societies that we like to fool ourselves that we live in, are not really working out. They are kind of falling apart right now. So did we really do better than the more experienced civilizations? Not sure.

They seemed to do a better job tackling crime than we have. Many Asian countries have low crime. Many Muslim and Arab countries have low crime. Crime is around because people put up with it.

[desodave]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Nope. I’m just trying to understand it. Understanding something is not the same as justifying or excusing it.

Agree fully !!

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Chotu

OK, but we modern and inexperienced new civilizations have very few generations under our belts and I don’t think people are really any different now than they were then. People are animals. We are animals. We have all of the emotions and issues that animals have. We haven’t changed or evolved much in a few hundred years. Just some of the laws we live under have changed. And some of the upbringing.

These advanced civilized societies that we like to fool ourselves that we live in, are not really working out. They are kind of falling apart right now. So did we really do better than the more experienced civilizations? Not sure.

They seemed to do a better job tackling crime than we have. Many Asian countries have low crime. Many Muslim and Arab countries have low crime. Crime is around because people put up with it.

Many countries have lower crime rates than the USA. You don't only have to look to Asia. Most European countries come in lower, as does Canada, Australia, New Zealand.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...ate-by-country

Crime is a complex phenomenon, driven by multiple factors. The simplistic view that crime can be eradicated through policing and punishment has long been debunked. The USA already has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world (https://www.statista.com/statistics/...0-inhabitants/).

Of course we are animals, but to suggest that we haven't evolved culturally is to ignore modern human history (the last 10,000 years). I suggest you read anything by Dr. Stephen Pinker, This is a favourite research topic of his.

[NorthCoastJoe]

First ::: it is not San Francisco or the Bay Area.

The problem is in the Oakland Estuary. We are talking about a small area between Oakland and Alameda that for years has had "homeless" people living on what I would call floating dumpsters. And the city is trying to clean it up.

I have docked in the area at night several times to eat at Brotzeit Lokal ( good food and a good dock too ) and never had a problem. Also spent the night at a nearby guest dock.

You have to look at the hype source "foxnews" is not a real news company. I think they want to bad mouth the SF bay area any chance they can get.

I worked as a Paramedic in the area 20+ years ago. There is crime, just like anywhere else. From what I have seen poverty is getting worse all over not just Oakland

And again it's not lawless San Francisco. It's like saying a crime that happens in a NJ city 10 miles away is NYC. There is a big chunk of water between Oakland and San Francisco, I sail it often.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Many countries have lower crime rates than the USA. You don't only have to look to Asia. Most European countries come in lower, as does Canada, Australia, New Zealand.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...ate-by-country

Crime is a complex phenomenon, driven by multiple factors. The simplistic view that crime can be eradicated through policing and punishment has long been debunked. The USA already has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world (https://www.statista.com/statistics/...0-inhabitants/).

Of course we are animals, but to suggest that we haven't evolved culturally is to ignore modern human history (the last 10,000 years). I suggest you read anything by Dr. Stephen Pinker, This is a favourite research topic of his.

Good point that many other countries that would fall under the civilized category you are using or may be western category have low crime rates.

So what’s the problem in the United States?

Maybe just a cultural problem? Like I had first been posting about?

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by NorthCoastJoe

First ::: it is not San Francisco or the Bay Area.
The problem is in the Oakland Estuary.

Of course, If the problem was happening at the St. Francis Yacht Club it would have been solved long before this thread started.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Good point that many other countries that would fall under the civilized category you are using or may be western category have low crime rates.

So what’s the problem in the United States?

Maybe just a cultural problem? Like I had first been posting about?

Crime is a societal problem. Is there a culture of crime? Sure... in some places and at some times. Is this cultural aspect stronger in the USA vs other peer countries? I don't have a way to answer that, although others probably would try. Certainly, you can do national-level comparisons to see where countries fall.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Chotu

So what’s the problem in the United States?

Google has plenty of info on that

Telling the truth will start arguments, get political and the post will disappear