Mooring Etiquette : Questions

[thinwater]

If you start to drag you are underway and are thus give-way. There is some court history on this situation, although even so, it is mixed. It depends on if the anchored boat could reasonably have done more; sometimes yes, often not really.

For example, in one case a boat that came later and anchored very near was damaged when the original boat dragged. There was also a wind shift. Clouding the issue was whether the boat actually dragged, or was it just swing. The court divided blame.

I couldn't find a case that was just swing. Perhaps that is because you can always claim the up wind boat was actually dragging, even just a little. Very hard to document after the fact in any way that will believed.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I would have never guessed.

Me: Education: SUNY Maritime College
Miles: Over a million

Shucks.. ya beat me..
I'm only ex Royal Navy..
Miles at sea.. never bothered totalling for bragging rights..

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Me: Education: SUNY Maritime College
Miles: Over a million

And how many of those miles were in small boats? In how many harbors have you anchored a cruising sailboat?

Funny experience: When I first arrived in Ireland I was taught by the locals to stay far away from the dreaded blue ensign. That is, boats owned by active and retired Royal Navy officers. Sure enough the first one to show up ran aground twice before leaving the harbor. You see an officer never touches the helm. He never actually steers anything. And the constraints of a large ship are completely different than those of a small sailboat. But the egos don't shrink with the ship. To be fair, I met at least as many highly competent skippers with blue ensigns as those who were in desperate need of training in the basics, but this wasn't the last experience. Hmmm, now why did I think of that?

Greg

Apologies to Boatie (I saw your post after writing this): you are clearly one of the good ones.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Apologies to Boatie: you are clearly one of the good ones.

Likely coz I was not an officer.. though I helmed a few frigates and destroyers in my time.
Aye Aye Sir..!! 10 degrees starboard.. course now 325*.
A simple seaman..

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Likely coz I was not an officer..

Ah, that explains it.

Greg

[Jim Cate]

And how many of those miles were in small boats? In how many harbors have you anchored a cruising sailboat?

A question that has been asked before...

Jim

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

The swinging circles of the two boats should NEVER overlap, period. With an approaching squall, no one knew what the wind directions might be, period. No rational person could possibly come to any other conclusion.

That statement would confirm that you're North American:
A couple of months ago, we and several others 'enjoyed' a pleasant afternoon sharing a Bahamian anchorage with yet another territorial North American Yottie, he was one of the more common US flagged variety, though we have come across a few of the thankfully rarer Canadian breed too, since we crossed to the west side of the Atlantic. As a rule of thumb, I would estimate that in any given anchoring area, you could fit twice the number of similarly sized European-flagged vessels as you can North American ones; actually, if they were all French-flagged, you'd squeeeze 4 or 5 times as many in! I'd originally thought this need for space was perhaps a big country/small population density thing, but if that were true, surely it'd effect Australians and South Africans too? And amongst the Europeans it would surely be the Dutch rather than French who could squeeze the most yachts into a given space?

This Skipper was typical of the breed, albeit more foul-mouthed than usual: Having claimed his spot, about 60-80' off our port side, just abaft the beam (we were fine/happy with that) any yacht which subsequently attempted to anchor off his own port beam, even 120-150' away was roundly abused for being 'too close' and would apparently 'swing into him if the wind changed'; I'm assuming from this that he wasn't anticipating he, or indeed ourselves moving in any of these potential windshifts?

Even louder howls of complaint arose should anyone have the temerity to contemplate anchoring ahead of him, as whilst I would estimate that he'd laid a maximum of 100' of anchor rode, any boat which settled within 150-200' of his bow was 'sitting on my anchor'. I'd thought that this anomaly might be explained by him perhaps having used shock-cord or something similarly elastic as an anchor rode, but that can't have been right as we then discovered that his anchor rode was clearly rigid, albeit a bit bent: Sitting in 15 knots of wind and with a tidal current heading the same direction, we and I'd assumed everyone else, pretty much had our anchors directly ahead of the bow? Not your man's though, when a yacht proceeded to anchor almost thirty degrees of his port bow, that we were all loudly informed was precisely where his anchor was sat.

The situation, as ever was exacerbated by his deploying what we've come to know as the Octopus Anchor; these seem to be the anchor of choice amongst this breed of Yottie and this guy had clearly got a himself a particularly active one: A yacht comes in, anchors perhaps 150' ahead and 25-degrees off his port bow and he's immediately on the bow advising that he's 'sitting over the anchor'. A half-hour later, when another yacht arrived and proceeded to anchor some 180' and 20-degrees off his starboard bow, he was back on the foredeck to loudly declare that he too (yet another idiot apparently) was also 'sitting on my anchor'; I guess the intervening thirty minutes would've been more than enough time for his Octopus Anchor to have scuttled across to this new location?

What made this particular incident so memorable amongst the many was that a couple of days later, he motored into another anchorage – still in the Bahamas – where we were sat and despite huge choice in vast areas of space, he settled himself in directly ahead of us and less than 40' off our bow. When I suggested – I didn't need to shout, or even trek up to the foredeck, he was close enough to hear my normal normal speaking voice just standing in the cockpit - that given the forecast for thunderstorms, we might both be a little more comfortable if he re-anchored either further forward, or elsewhere, he clearly and loudly disagreed. I was told that "this is where I always anchor in here, if you don't like it, then you f***ing move". We did.

As an aside, we've anchored off that east side of Vulcano and when everyone moves around from the far more spacious and civilsed west bay, it can be a pain for all concerned, but with no where else to go, everyone needs to make the best of a bad job; at least it's better than Stromboli on a lively night.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

A question that has been asked before...

Jim

Don't know. I've owned and operated boats for over 45 years.

I do agree that Navy experience is near worthless in most cases. A lot of navy personnel never set foot on a boat much less have any responsibility in operating one. Unfortunately experience is no substitute for common sense and good judgement.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by bobnlesley

As a rule of thumb, I would estimate that in any given anchoring area, you could fit twice the number of similarly sized European-flagged vessels as you can North American ones; actually, if they were all French-flagged, you'd squeeeze 4 or 5 times as many in!

And if you really want a rude awakening, come into a crowded harbor and try to come alongside an American boat! "I've got mine - the hell with you." Or as the English say: "I'm alright Jack - pull the ladder up!"

Greg

[buzzstar]

I am surprised at how few (if any - I noticed none that are really specific*) comments have involved civilized communication by voice or VHF between/among boats already at anchor, and the most basic questions such as anchor position (often reliably available nowadays), the anchor depth, and how much scope. Me, I've encountered as many potential problems via entangled and snarled lines as I have, oh crud I am about to get hit moments, although the latter might precede the former if I was below.

*I am unsure how to count the one in post #67 by bobnlesley

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

The swinging circles of the two boats should NEVER overlap, period. With an approaching squall, no one knew what the wind directions might be, period. No rational person could possibly come to any other conclusion.

Nonsense. You do not understand the geometry at all. Swinging circles ALWAYS overlap, except only in very empty anchorages.

The wind may blow in different directions, but not in different directions , for different boats. That's why you care about match, at least roughly, scope - so that boats swing together. It's why you give more space to a boat of a different type - cat, or power boat - which swings less harmoniously with yours. But even then you don't have to give SO much spa, that the circles don't overlap at all.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by bobnlesley

That statement would confirm that you're North American:
A couple of months ago, we and several others 'enjoyed' a pleasant afternoon sharing a Bahamian anchorage with yet another territorial North American Yottie, he was one of the more common US flagged variety, though we have come across a few of the thankfully rarer Canadian breed too, since we crossed to the west side of the Atlantic. As a rule of thumb, I would estimate that in any given anchoring area, you could fit twice the number of similarly sized European-flagged vessels as you can North American ones; actually, if they were all French-flagged, you'd squeeeze 4 or 5 times as many in! I'd originally thought this need for space was perhaps a big country/small population density thing, but if that were true, surely it'd effect Australians and South Africans too? And amongst the Europeans it would surely be the Dutch rather than French who could squeeze the most yachts into a given space?

This Skipper was typical of the breed, albeit more foul-mouthed than usual: Having claimed his spot, about 60-80' off our port side, just abaft the beam (we were fine/happy with that) any yacht which subsequently attempted to anchor off his own port beam, even 120-150' away was roundly abused for being 'too close' and would apparently 'swing into him if the wind changed'; I'm assuming from this that he wasn't anticipating he, or indeed ourselves moving in any of these potential windshifts?

Even louder howls of complaint arose should anyone have the temerity to contemplate anchoring ahead of him, as whilst I would estimate that he'd laid a maximum of 100' of anchor rode, any boat which settled within 150-200' of his bow was 'sitting on my anchor'. I'd thought that this anomaly might be explained by him perhaps having used shock-cord or something similarly elastic as an anchor rode, but that can't have been right as we then discovered that his anchor rode was clearly rigid, albeit a bit bent: Sitting in 15 knots of wind and with a tidal current heading the same direction, we and I'd assumed everyone else, pretty much had our anchors directly ahead of the bow? Not your man's though, when a yacht proceeded to anchor almost thirty degrees of his port bow, that we were all loudly informed was precisely where his anchor was sat.

The situation, as ever was exacerbated by his deploying what we've come to know as the Octopus Anchor; these seem to be the anchor of choice amongst this breed of Yottie and this guy had clearly got a himself a particularly active one: A yacht comes in, anchors perhaps 150' ahead and 25-degrees off his port bow and he's immediately on the bow advising that he's 'sitting over the anchor'. A half-hour later, when another yacht arrived and proceeded to anchor some 180' and 20-degrees off his starboard bow, he was back on the foredeck to loudly declare that he too (yet another idiot apparently) was also 'sitting on my anchor'; I guess the intervening thirty minutes would've been more than enough time for his Octopus Anchor to have scuttled across to this new location?

What made this particular incident so memorable amongst the many was that a couple of days later, he motored into another anchorage – still in the Bahamas – where we were sat and despite huge choice in vast areas of space, he settled himself in directly ahead of us and less than 40' off our bow. When I suggested – I didn't need to shout, or even trek up to the foredeck, he was close enough to hear my normal normal speaking voice just standing in the cockpit - that given the forecast for thunderstorms, we might both be a little more comfortable if he re-anchored either further forward, or elsewhere, he clearly and loudly disagreed. I was told that "this is where I always anchor in here, if you don't like it, then you f***ing move". We did.

As an aside, we've anchored off that east side of Vulcano and when everyone moves around from the far more spacious and civilsed west bay, it can be a pain for all concerned, but with no where else to go, everyone needs to make the best of a bad job; at least it's better than Stromboli on a lively night.

Don't smear all us yanks! Most of us, obviously not all! Understand how swinging circles work!

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[kmacdonald]

The "geometry" is that if the swinging circles overlap then there IS THE POSSIBILITY of a collision. Boats at anchor don't respond the same in wind shifts, waves, current. If the swinging circles don't overlap there is NO CHANCE of collision. Wonder what common sense dictates?

[kmacdonald]

Sorry, I was never in the Navy.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Wonder what common sense dictates?

Common sense dictates that you take what space is available. That, or particularly in the Med, you will quite literally have to sail day and night for a very long time to find such a place in the summer.

Greg