Mooring Etiquette : Questions

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Sorry, I was never in the Navy.

Thank God!

I gotta get something useful done now...

Ciao,

Greg

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Nonsense. You do not understand the geometry at all. Swinging circles ALWAYS overlap, except only in very empty anchorages.

The wind may blow in different directions, but not in different directions , for different boats. That's why you care about match, at least roughly, scope - so that boats swing together. It's why you give more space to a boat of a different type - cat, or power boat - which swings less harmoniously with yours. But even then you don't have to give SO much spa, that the circles don't overlap at all.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Actually, aside from the way different vessels are affected, there can be differences due to wind, and definitely current, not to mention other forces, but I have not experienced any that be sufficient cause swings in directly opposite directions, even over short periods, when adjacent vessels in the usual private cruising size range are involved.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by buzzstar

Actually, aside from the way different vessels are affected, there can be differences due to wind, and definitely current, not to mention other forces, but I have not experienced any that be sufficient cause swings in directly opposite direction, even over short periods, when adjacent vessels in the usual private cruising size range are involved.

Ack. I'll bite. One last post for the PM.

I have seen such a thing. There were many boats anchored in the channel in La Paz. The channel is connected to a large lagoon. The current reverses with the tide. As that happens the full keel boats would do a 180 first, and the cats and other light boats would respond to the wind longer. It could get really ugly.

I'm gone.

Greg

[boatman61]

[QUOTE=kmacdonald;2248655]Don't know. I've owned and operated boats for over 45 years.

I do agree that Navy experience is near worthless in most cases. A lot of navy personnel never set foot on a boat much less have any responsibility in operating one. Unfortunately experience is no substitute for common sense and good judgement.[/QUOTE]

True... lol

Obviously referring to your own Navy..
In ours we had a little song about your guys..

"From the Halls of Montezuma.. to the shores of Tripoli..
There's a buzz going round the harbour.. that the Yanks are going to sea..
With their crates of Coca Cola and some bludi great tubs of Ice Cream..
Well they're bludi good kids in harbour..
But Oh My God at sea.."

[bobnlesley]

"Don't smear all us yanks! Most of us, obviously not all! Understand how swinging circles work!"

Come on, it wouldn't be a worthwhile thread without a few sweeping generalisations and a bit of nationalistic stereotyping. Actually, we do try to run a non-prejudicial boat, permitting no discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, colour, politics, or sexual orientation...

apart from the Welsh of course, we do make a special exception for the Taffs.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by bobnlesley

"Don't smear all us yanks! Most of us, obviously not all! Understand how swinging circles work!"

Come on, it wouldn't be a worthwhile thread without a few sweeping generalisations and a bit of nationalistic stereotyping. Actually, we do try to run a non-prejudicial boat, permitting no discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, colour, politics, or sexual orientation...

apart from the Welsh of course, we do make a special exception for the Taffs.

You can question Boatmans sexual orientation but I'm not going there. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Ack. I'll bite. One last post for the PM.

I have seen such a thing. There were many boats anchored in the channel in La Paz. The channel is connected to a large lagoon. The current reverses with the tide. As that happens the full keel boats would do a 180 first, and the cats and other light boats would respond to the wind longer. It could get really ugly.

I'm gone.

Greg

That happens in lots of places to differing degrees. With a heavy long keeler, we would always prefer not to be next to a catamaran or motorboat; we swing to tide earlier, whilst they both move sooner to any wind changes. Similarly, European flagged boats are predominantly rigged with all chain anchor rodes and more often deeper drafted than the moreoften rope-roded North American vessels; we find the latter tend to dance around much more in gusty, squally conditions.

[boatman61]

Question away re my sexual orientation.. you'll likely be as right as your are with your anchoring ideas.. and how squalls work.

[Tayana42]

Is that what all the talk of swinging circles was about? I totally missed that!

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

I am keen to know your opinion about this.

Last summer I anchored in Vulcano (Sicily) just ahead of a western squall. The ground is rocky, and rapidly goes down from 25' to 50', and further on to 150' depth.
That which makes a good , safe anchoring quite a sensitive issue out there.

In a bay where i have seen a few tens of boats, in August, there were just two in early October, and l managed to anchor as far away as possible, to the very end of the bay, dropping in 25' water and paying 140' of chain.

My boat hives back&forth on hook, and i found the other boat to my port side, at a distance varying from 40' to 100+' beam to beam (as both boats moved under guts of wind, not in synchrony).

I remained on cockpit, checking at length.
I could not do any better dropping.
Paying more chain could just get me closer
Paying any less could place me on the nose of that boat astern, a situation which i dont like, and respectfully avoid (and would contend, if anyone went on my bow).

We had fenders out, and got ready to consider a kedge on starboard side, though i disagree with double anchoring in general, in order to stay apart.

The couple on the other boat (US flag) got anxious, and addressed me politely, but repeatedly, eventually asking me to move out.

I replied that we were both hanging on hook, somewhat in parallel, as it usually happens (that which is of little issue even in crowdy bays, unless you give out too much chain vs others).
I also admitted that i could not drop my anchor any better elsewhere , and that we remained on watch.

He replied to have anchored first!! Well, it gives him the prime choice, but no further authority nor right of exclusivity imo.
I didn't reply to what looked like quite an odd remark.

The guy may have grown disappointed, as he soon after took off and moved 250' away, right during the squall, which made me feel sorrow, but not guilty...

In half an hour, another boat had anchored in his very place, putting herself again beam to beam against me, and the US boat too!

My son (20) cried me hypocritical, pointing out that i would have been equally contentious in his place.
I don't think so, tolerance and alertness come together when boating...

Yet, l remain with a question: is there anything about mooring etiquette that i am missing?

Thanks

PS there is a joke here in the Med, i put it short:

USS ENTERPRISE "We are the Commander in Chief of the US Navy, and we order you ( little boat) to move apart. NOW!
Answer: "We got it, Sirs. This is the Lighthouse of Trieste"

This is an extremely easy one.

If you are so close that you need to put out fenders or stand watch to avoid collision with another anchored boat, you are too close.

Whether a "first anchored" priviledged boat complains or not, you are at fault for encroaching on someone's swing radius and should move.

Your son is wise in these issues.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by buzzstar

Actually, aside from the way different vessels are affected, there can be differences due to wind, and definitely current, not to mention other forces, but I have not experienced any that be sufficient cause swings in directly opposite directions, even over short periods, when adjacent vessels in the usual private cruising size range are involved.

Well, I've seen it, even with two boats of nearly identical hull geometry and displacement. Last summer I was anchored next a friend about 40 yards apart, and we were anchored bow and stern, no swinging, but in the morning my boat and his were clearly being pushed in opposite directions, away from each other; exactly why I could not absolutely confirm. It seemed the tidal current came into the mouth of the cove and fanned out and was allowed to escape the head of the cove that was shallow. Local quirks like that of wind and current is another reason most folks in these parts anchor bow and stern.

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Ack. I'll bite. One last post for the PM.

I have seen such a thing. There were many boats anchored in the channel in La Paz. The channel is connected to a large lagoon. The current reverses with the tide. As that happens the full keel boats would do a 180 first, and the cats and other light boats would respond to the wind longer. It could get really ugly.

I'm gone.

Greg

I am glad you bit! I used the word "experienced" because I suspected it could exist, but did not want to go too far one way or the other without something to back it up. You have the actual experience and were able to support it. I could not do so,even having spent time at La Paz (presumably different conditions). Thanks.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

The "geometry" is that if the swinging circles overlap then there IS THE POSSIBILITY of a collision. Boats at anchor don't respond the same in wind shifts, waves, current. If the swinging circles don't overlap there is NO CHANCE of collision. Wonder what common sense dictates?

As others have pointed out, you clearly don't have experience in this.

If there's tons of room, then sure -- a zero risk option is great. Then by all means, anchor way out away from anyone else so you have zero overlap.

But this is like saying -- "Don't drive your car, ever, if there are other cars on the road. If you wait until you are the only car on the road, then there is NO CHANCE of a collision. Wonder what common sense dictates?"

Usually in a popular anchorage there is not room enough for a zero risk option, just like you will rarely have roads with no other car traffic.

So now you have to think about how much your swinging circle can overlap. The answer to this question depends on the extent to which boats near you will swing the same way yours does. Boats similar in size and type and with similar scope swing very much the same, and you can anchor quite near each other. You have to give more room, to boats which will not swing exactly the same.

Here's an example:



The Blue View - Anchoring in a Crowd | Just a Little Further

[Jim Cate]

The La Paz Waltz is a well documented situation. It is exacerbated by La Paz often being nearly the first real anchorage experience for new cruisers from California, and I do remember being rather kindly mentored by a (too) near neighbor when Ann and I first arrived there in 1986. Allowing a little extra room ws the norm then, and there was not too much angst shown when things went agley. While that waltz is famous, it is not an uncommon phenomenon, occurring in many river anchorages where wind against tide situations develop daily... BUT these sorts of conditions don't often occur in the type of anchorages under discussion in this thread, and were not part of the issue. Lots of speculation about what could possibly happen, but as described, it didn't seem all that threatening to me.

In normal anchorages, boats, even disparate types of boats generally will swing in somewhat the same manner, so that even with close spacing, contact is infrequent. And when it does occur, it is not usually all that severe; an anchor watch keeper can usually prevent actual contact by judicious use of a fender. No one likes such situations, but all too often there is an irrational response by someone in the anchorage,as evidenced by the stories above, and ugly situations can develop. And crowded anchorages, where non-intersecting swinging circles are simply not available, abound in popular boating areas; going "elsewhere" is sometimes not a viable option.

So, what is the prudent cruiser to do? We've found that if close proximity seems likely, making verbal contact before anchoring helps defuse the situation. We'll go close by and hail, asking how much chain is out and where the anchor might be lying. We'll say something to the effect that we will take that into consideration when anchoring, and that we will stand watch if necessary. This sort of approach usually keeps the hate level down!

Finally, IME it hasn't ever been swinging boats that caused damage in an anchorage, rather it is dragging boats. Those boats are hard to predict when one is a late arriver, because you didn't get to see what gear they had deployed, how they did so, and how much scope they allowed. Observation, both personal and the excellent data provided by Nolex has shown that all too many folks just don't know or care how to best do that daily task, and they are the ones that worry me. And predicting just which boat will be to windward in a shifting squall is a crap shoot.

All part of the cruising life, and quite possibly why marinas are so full in some places!

Jim

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

A question that has been asked before...

Jim

And studiously avoided every time.