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**weavis** · 03-11-2016, 02:21

A comment on experience.

I teach certain aspects of medicine. One of the things I note is the practitioners approach to their career in the classroom. Some describe themselves as XX years experienced, and some just say that they are here to learn.

I often have patients for the students to examine and many many video cases for them to observe and comment on and recommend treatment for.

Experience is nefarious. I hate the term. I wonder how some drs live with their ego simply because in their case, experience means doing something wrong for most of their careers. Experience means repeating the same mistake every time for 30 years.

Sailing is like that. comments abound like "Ive been sailing for 45 years and have lots of experience!"

There is a lot of that on this board. Since being a kid in my teens Ive had fishing boats, graduating to sailing vessels and then a few 40ft offshore cruisers in the States and back to sailing boats and now in love with Catamarans. Am I experienced? In buying and selling boats, yes, in being able to enter and leave marinas safely, in plotting charts, in using RADAR, in GPS operations, in solo sailing sub 30 foot monos etc.

Does this make me an experienced sailor? No. I have never had the need to do many things that members do on this board, and Ive never felt the need to offer advice on anything sailing related to people I KNOW who are genuinely experienced in sailing matters.

Do I think I can sail from Spain to the USA alone in a 35 footer? Technically yes I think I can. Mentally and emotionally, Im not so sure. There is so much knowledge I lack in many areas and many things I am finding that I have learned over the years that is incorrect in real application.

Sailing is very similar to medicine. Doing something wrong may end up with an expensive bill or even a death. I know a little bit about anchoring, a little about scope, a little about positioning, and I can tell immediately on this thread that at least one person knows a lot less than me. Thats a shame because I really know only a little. Yet, there is the claim of X amount of years experience.

Claims of experience mean nothing to me. Being able to do the job properly and with a fundamental basic common sense and an understanding of WHY it needs to be done that way is far more important. A new person to sailing may do something the correct way, but they lack experience to do it in a practiced way but still is doing it correctly. An old hand at sailing but practiced in doing it the wrong way looks good but............

Eventually, in every walk of life, the real experience shines through and the wannabe 'professionals' are sidelined and ignored. Its a natural selection, for what is spoken cannot be unspoken and incorrectness floats to the top and is skimmed off.

Im happy to learn from correct experience. It just takes a little time and observation to see who has it.

Suijin · 03-11-2016, 02:49

Golly, this thread is still going strong. And it's gone from bashing the original poster to bashing each other and even whole countries.

Think I'll go read a thread where I learn something actually useful...

**boatman61** · 03-11-2016, 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't think the rudder would be at any big risk from water -- water in waves moves up and down. But your point about getting the anchor rode tangled in stern gear is well taken.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Strange comment DH.. that infers no forward impetus.. having been in a boat picked up and thrown by a wave then had it wash over the boat it sure has felt like impetus..
The only 'up and down waves I've experienced were in a 36hr SE'ly gale in the Biscay where the sea's surface current was backed up by the strong wind.

**weavis** · 03-11-2016, 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Strange comment DH.. that infers no forward impetus.. having been in a boat picked up and thrown by a wave then had it wash over the boat it sure has felt like impetus..
The only 'up and down waves I've experienced were in a 36hr SE'ly gale in the Biscay where the sea's surface current was backed up by the strong wind.

Oof!
I feel nausea coming on.

Pelagic · 03-11-2016, 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The more usual ways to stop sailing at anchor is a spring off the chain or a riding sail. I used to use the first technique on my previous boat, but haven't needed it on this boat, who doesn't dance at anchor, bless her (25 tons is good for something at least).

But I think the late Mr. Jordan was talking about extreme conditions. I've never had to anchor in a hurricane, but you read about how boats saw through one snubber after another with all the violent yawing. Anchoring by the stern might be good in that situation. A big challenge however would be keeping the sheets of rain from being blown past the companionway washboards.

I don't think the rudder would be at any big risk from water -- water in waves moves up and down. But your point about getting the anchor rode tangled in stern gear is well taken.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

A technique I have used successfully in strong winds on those wedding cake super yachts was to lower a 2nd anchor to the bottom with only about 20 ft of extra chain.

In a slurry type bottom, it dramatically slowed down the hunting and nicely polished the anchor[emoji4] [emoji4]

**boatman61** · 03-11-2016, 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis

Oof!
I feel nausea coming on.

Hey I'm not into intensive research and equations.. I work on Luddite instinct..

To me you have a flat sea with no wind..
wind picks up to say 20mph and the surface gets pushed along while resistance below the surface causes it to lump up to maybe 1metre.. rising in size as the wind increases (size dependent on strength/duration and high/low pressure).. as the sea shallows the impetus forward causes higher waves than further out the longer the wind blows.
Considering how folks worry about being pooped running before the wind the statement did not seem to make sense.

**weavis** · 03-11-2016, 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hey I'm not into intensive research and equations.. I work on Luddite instinct..

To me you have a flat sea with no wind..
wind picks up to say 20mph and the surface gets pushed along while resistance below the surface causes it to lump up to maybe 1metre.. rising in size as the wind increases (size dependent on strength/duration and high/low pressure).. as the sea shallows the impetus forward causes higher waves than further out the longer the wind blows.
Considering how folks worry about being pooped running before the wind the statement did not seem to make sense.

Oh yes....

**boatman61** · 03-11-2016, 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis

Oh yes....

Puke all you want bud.. it'll not shut me up..
Enlighten me and I just may..

Steven UK · 03-11-2016, 05:35

apologies for hijacking a thread but i am curious about the wave action plus a little constructive conversation never hurt also. i have read the last two pages and not learnt anything but i am curious about waves and the mechanics of them. it was my understanding that they were like sound i.e. one bit of water moved the next bit then went back, this manifests its self on the surface by the up and down bits i.e. the water gets pushed up as it gets a quick shove and is released. this would explain the 'lapping' motion when it hits the beach. yes the compressed part of the water 'bit that goes up and down' will fall over when it hits shallow water. but the top of the water is not moving. if it were it would just continually move up the beach. my son wants to go to school so i have to go....

**weavis** · 03-11-2016, 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Puke all you want bud.. it'll not shut me up..
Enlighten me and I just may..

It was not a comment on your statement.
Its the wave action that makes me sick.

When I do puke, its usually on the up and down motion when launching from a beach and going over the top of waves till it settles.

**weavis** · 03-11-2016, 05:44

Everyone thinks people are out to get them...

kmacdonald · 03-11-2016, 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven UK

apologies for hijacking a thread but i am curious about the wave action plus a little constructive conversation never hurt also. i have read the last two pages and not learnt anything but i am curious about waves and the mechanics of them. it was my understanding that they were like sound i.e. one bit of water moved the next bit then went back, this manifests its self on the surface by the up and down bits i.e. the water gets pushed up as it gets a quick shove and is released. this would explain the 'lapping' motion when it hits the beach. yes the compressed part of the water 'bit that goes up and down' will fall over when it hits shallow water. but the top of the water is not moving. if it were it would just continually move up the beach. my son wants to go to school so i have to go....

This has some good information: SetSail FPB » Free Books

**boatman61** · 03-11-2016, 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven UK

apologies for hijacking a thread but i am curious about the wave action plus a little constructive conversation never hurt also. i have read the last two pages and not learnt anything but i am curious about waves and the mechanics of them. it was my understanding that they were like sound i.e. one bit of water moved the next bit then went back, this manifests its self on the surface by the up and down bits i.e. the water gets pushed up as it gets a quick shove and is released. this would explain the 'lapping' motion when it hits the beach. yes the compressed part of the water 'bit that goes up and down' will fall over when it hits shallow water. but the top of the water is not moving. if it were it would just continually move up the beach. my son wants to go to school so i have to go....

Its down to a combination of force and duration.. (in my dense understanding) if it was merely up and down you would not get annual events in Bangladesh.. the surface is driven forwards by the wind.
However my question was more to do with anchoring stern to or rafting and how one can quickly come unstuck with no warning..
An experience in Mallorca on the 12th Sept 96 anchored in the then popular anchorage of Andratx.. now given over to moorings though one can still anchor further out.. there were around 40 boats on the hook when a tornado/hurricane suddenly sprung up unforecast from the SW straight up the 'fjord'.. within 20 minutes I was the only boat out there as many of the others dragged and then ran for the inner harbour.. moored boats were being sunk or washed onto the road.. in an anchorage round the corner a yacht ended up 20ft up a semi cliff and in Palma there was chaos on a large scale in the marina's.. palms blown down and a couple of deaths.
I used to take anchoring seriously before that.. but since that experience its been reinforced.. the only reason I did not drag is because I knew the bottom.. its a hard bottom and difficult to set a hook in but most often its a placid anchorage so sufficient chain will keep you held.. however there are small crevasses running across and I always made a point of setting my hook in a certain one after experiencing some dragging my first night there..
I dived the next day and saw what the problem was.. and the solution.
Some of the boats that ran into the inner harbour ended up aground at the NE end due to silt/mushy holding inside.
Anchorage was to the right side of the fjord outside the harbour.
Something else I do is drop my boom to the port side and secure it under the lower guardrail and tie the rudder offset.. I find this helps with the hunting back and forth.. but remember.. I sail small or low windage boats.. my current 39ftr I can lean over and rinse my hand in the water while sitting on the deck..
This is good for a luddite like me.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_wave