Mooring Etiquette : Questions

[barboak]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Raft-ups are common practice in a lot of areas. They are necessary to get more boats in a smaller anchorage. If you open your eyes you will see one in the pictures posted above. Like I said before there are conditions that would make rafting-up ill advised. Sorry you missed it.

I believe most of those boats are on anchor in that pic. Sir, you are not convincing anyone of the experience behind your unusual opinions on anchoring etiquette!

[Scotty Kiwi]

Not sure I understand this thread. W.t.f. is "crowded anchorage"??????
Haha. Some of you should zip down to Marlborough Sounds. Yes, even the yanks. Need more yotties. Not the Aucklanders though.

Oh yeah that's right, it happens at Furneaux, only on New Years. A bit crowded, that is. And maybe the Hopai Sports Day on Jan 6th. All welcome.

[Jim Cate]

ScottyK, those are nothing!

Try Smokehouse bay (GBI) during the Christmas madness... we did it once, just to experience a "cultural experience". Made some new friends by the Braile method!

Jim

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

When the swinging circles don't overlap it's not a problem. To prevent sailing at anchor just anchor from the stern. I never anchor from the bow anymore.

If there's so much room that swinging circles don't overlap, then why would you need to conserve space? Maybe you can show us some photos of this "common practice" -- you must have some from your "thousands of nights at anchor".


In fact of course this is nonsense. Even in relatively uncrowded anchorages it is quite normal to drop the anchor in line with the stern of the next boat ahead, and offset to the side. That is how they teach it in sailing schools:



The reason for that is that the overlap of swinging circles is only about 50%, which is enough room for even quite different boats with quite different scope, to swing safely.

Then in really crowded places like in the BVI, you do something like this:




If anyone seriously tried to avoid any overlap at all, the space taken up by each boat would be enormous. 5:1 in 5 meters of water gives gives you a swinging circle of about 60 meters or 200 feet in diameter. It means boats would have to be spaced 200 feet apart. Spacing them 100 feet apart with 50% overlap, which is very generous and safe spacing, quadruples the number of boats which can fit in a given anchorage. 50 feet apart also works fine provided you keep boats of different types apart, and scope is similar.

That's in 5 meters of water. With big tides like we have here, it becomes more complicated because the scope changes with the tide, and we have to let out enough chain to leave us with adequate scope at high tide, but 15 meters to the next boat is usually still quite ok.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If there's so much room that swinging circles don't overlap, then why would you need to conserve space? Maybe you can show us some photos of this "common practice" -- you must have some from your "thousands of nights at anchor".


In fact of course this is nonsense. Even in relatively uncrowded anchorages it is quite normal to drop the anchor in line with the stern of the next boat ahead, and offset to the side. That is how they teach it in sailing schools:

Attachment 134751

The reason for that is that the overlap of swinging circles is only about 50%, which is enough room for even quite different boats with quite different scope, to swing safely.

Then in really crowded places like in the BVI, you do something like this:

Attachment 134752


If anyone seriously tried to avoid any overlap at all, the space taken up by each boat would be enormous. 5:1 in 5 meters of water gives gives you a swinging circle of about 60 meters or 200 feet in diameter. It means boats would have to be spaced 200 feet apart. Spacing them 100 feet apart with 50% overlap, which is very generous and safe spacing, quadruples the number of boats which can fit in a given anchorage. 50 feet apart also works fine provided you keep boats of different types apart, and scope is similar.

That's in 5 meters of water. With big tides like we have here, it becomes more complicated because the scope changes with the tide, and we have to let out enough chain to leave us with adequate scope at high tide, but 15 meters to the next boat is usually still quite ok.

You can lead a horse to water.. but you can't make them drink.
Vaguely remember someone on here a few years back putting forth the anchor stern to technique.. till they tried a windy weekend in Studland Bay.. needless stress on the rudder.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If there's so much room that swinging circles don't overlap, then why would you need to conserve space? Maybe you can show us some photos of this "common practice" -- you must have some from your "thousands of nights at anchor".


In fact of course this is nonsense. Even in relatively uncrowded anchorages it is quite normal to drop the anchor in line with the stern of the next boat ahead, and offset to the side. That is how they teach it in sailing schools:

Attachment 134751

The reason for that is that the overlap of swinging circles is only about 50%, which is enough room for even quite different boats with quite different scope, to swing safely.

Then in really crowded places like in the BVI, you do something like this:

Attachment 134752


If anyone seriously tried to avoid any overlap at all, the space taken up by each boat would be enormous. 5:1 in 5 meters of water gives gives you a swinging circle of about 60 meters or 200 feet in diameter. It means boats would have to be spaced 200 feet apart. Spacing them 100 feet apart with 50% overlap, which is very generous and safe spacing, quadruples the number of boats which can fit in a given anchorage. 50 feet apart also works fine provided you keep boats of different types apart, and scope is similar.

That's in 5 meters of water. With big tides like we have here, it becomes more complicated because the scope changes with the tide, and we have to let out enough chain to leave us with adequate scope at high tide, but 15 meters to the next boat is usually still quite ok.

Must be the "new math".

[CarinaPDX]

Years ago I had been in communication with Don Jordan (of the mini-drogues) and he had commented about how much better boats ride to anchor stern-to. I had offered that the exposed rudder was a bad idea, and he responded that the forces were quite small because there was very little water movement - lashing amidships would be sufficient. I never tried it. It would certainly expose the cockpit, and below when the hatch is opened, to the weather. It would also be much more difficult to recover the anchor, or even motor off a lee shore should the anchor drag. Reversing into a stern anchor rode could get ugly real fast. In the real world a bad idea IMHO.

Greg

[kmacdonald]

A raft-up. For professional use only. Please don't try this at home.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

A raft-up. For professional use only. Please don't try this at home.

Not my idea of cruising boats. Is this your experience?

Greg

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Years ago I had been in communication with Don Jordan (of the mini-drogues) and he had commented about how much better boats ride to anchor stern-to. I had offered that the exposed rudder was a bad idea, and he responded that the forces were quite small because there was very little water movement - lashing amidships would be sufficient. I never tried it. It would certainly expose the cockpit, and below when the hatch is opened, to the weather. It would also be much more difficult to recover the anchor, or even motor off a lee shore should the anchor drag. Reversing into a stern anchor rode could get ugly real fast. In the real world a bad idea IMHO.

Greg

Don Jordan is correct and the math supports his opinion. Wives tales die hard. Dinosaurs once traveled the earth in large numbers, apparently there are some left.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Not my idea of cruising boats. Is this your experience?

Greg

It's my favorite of the two. Its been to Maine, Narragansett Bay, Block Island, Barnegat Bay, Chesapeake Bay, Outer Banks NC, Key West, Dry Tortugas and a whole lot more places. If you like sailing, small boats are the most fun IMHO.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

A raft-up. For professional use only. Please don't try this at home.

Appears to be ten vessels rafted there, all depending upon one rope rode that is stretched out pretty taught in what appear to be mill pond conditions.

yep, pretty professional...

but km, we all know what a raft up is, but we don't agree that they are the solution to crowded anchorages. Those pictures do nothing to support that idea, for they depict a calm weather afternoon raft of small boats, not an overnight anchorage in crappy weather situation such as the OP was describing.

Oh, BTW, what is it that I am unprettyly supposed to be jealous of? I'll admit to being not very pretty, but I'm not a jealous type in general. Could you please explain that accusation?

Jim

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Don Jordan is correct and the math supports his opinion.

I don't doubt at all that it would work, and the rudder would be fine. My experience tells me that getting out of that position, especially singlehanded, would be far more difficult. If the anchor dragged I would be facing the wrong direction to avoid the lee shore. Backing up while trying to recover a rope rode would be fraught to say the least. And it would be unpleasant in heavy weather to stand an anchor watch.

Which is to say that technically it would work great, but in the real world it would be a really bad idea.

Greg

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I don't doubt at all that it would work, and the rudder would be fine. My experience tells me that getting out of that position, especially singlehanded, would be far more difficult. If the anchor dragged I would be facing the wrong direction to avoid the lee shore. Backing up while trying to recover a rope rode would be fraught to say the least. And it would be unpleasant in heavy weather to stand an anchor watch.

Which is to say that technically it would work great, but in the real world it would be a really bad idea.

Greg

Leave a little more distance to the lee shore. For most occasions it's not necessary to anchor from the stern for some of the reasons you state. In hurricane conditions it has proved to work well and should be used in those conditions.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Appears to be ten vessels rafted there, all depending upon one rope rode that is stretched out pretty taught in what appear to be mill pond conditions.

yep, pretty professional...

but km, we all know what a raft up is, but we don't agree that they are the solution to crowded anchorages. Those pictures do nothing to support that idea, for they depict a calm weather afternoon raft of small boats, not an overnight anchorage in crappy weather situation such as the OP was describing.

Oh, BTW, what is it that I am unprettyly supposed to be jealous of? I'll admit to being not very pretty, but I'm not a jealous type in general. Could you please explain that accusation?

Jim

Jim, I'm not looking for your or anyone else's agreement. I just stated what has worked for me. If you don't like it don't do it. As for the original post, I said he was wrong not to move along with several others. We will just have to disagree on it.

Eleven boats, not ten. Can't you get anything right? It's like you ran out of digits.