Help with Anchor .... Is it the Same at West Marine ?

[sabray]

I after much thought replaced my cqr with a Manson supreme. Went even further and use it as a primary moving my face Bruce to a back up.
I can't say it's better then the Bruce yet. My impression is it sets faster and is more forgiving Of my errors. I did not have to rebuild my roller. I think with a Bruce a Manson and a fx I have the best gear on board. With 220 feet of 3/8 chain I'm pretty confident in either Bruce or Manson. Yes they have both been set in blows of 45 plus with a adequate snubber. Neither one had failed me. Good set lots of length with chain right anchors and snubber. works I am happy with the Manson so far., Bruce is a tad pissed cause it's now a back up.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by JonJo

It is most strange the numbers of yacht owners who bought a $500 roll bar anchor and then needed to spend another $500 to have their bow roller modified to allow the roll bar to fit. They could have spent the same money and used a Spade or Fortress and more recently an Excel or Boss - makes no sense at all to me.

Some is certainly marketing, but remember that in some parts of the world (North America), the only new generation anchors readily available were the Fortress and Rocna/Supreme. Most won't use a danforth style as their primary anchor due to worries about re-setting in a shift, so that leaves a roll bar anchor.

Many boats can take a roll bar anchor without modifying their rollers much. I couldn't and I looked into a Spade ($900) or and Excel (more like $1000 after shipping all the way from Australia) and settled on a Boss. I then had to wait 6 months for the Boss to come out on the market (mine's supposed to arrive next week and it better bloody well fit the bowsprit).

If I was in Europe or Aus I would have had different choices and would probably have gone with a different anchor so I wouldn't have to wait.

[JonJo]

Its most odd but if you went back some, many, years ago anchor development was primarily in Europe, Simpson Lawrence, Plastimo, Bruce, Wasi (not denegrating anything that Mr Danforth and Mr Fortress also did). Now anchor development seems to have migrated to Oz and NZ - where next?, (which is most unfortunate for those living elsewhere as both are a long way from anywhere and as pointed out, or implied, shipping individual anchors is horrendoucsly expensive).

I vaguely recall that Anchor Right had some sort of distributor in N America - but cannot recall who.

[JonJo]

On Roll Bars,

I was in one of our local boatyards yesterday and the yacht next to the one on which I am working is a rather delightful Beneteau, about 65 foot. They have a short bow sprit and a Manson Supreme on the bow roller. Unusually they have cut the roll bar off, leaving two little stumps where the roll bar ought to be.

Interestingly if you have a look at, or think about it, a Rocna you will identify its shank is almost, or actually, identical to the self righting shank of the Delta. It looks like a direct copy. It seems redundant to have a self righting shank and a roll bar, reinforcing what Gmac said (the roll bar was to get round patent or design issues). If you think a bit further the shank of the Rocna, with a roll bar, could possible have been straight (like a Bugel) which would have allowed more efficient cutting of the steel.

[bobconnie]

Gosh !! who are all these folks who won't use a danforth anchor but will have a Fortress (a direct danforth copy) for a Big wind anchor ?? all I know for sure is if ya set a danforth anchor properly it will hold!! maybe if ya get a 100+ % wind shift it may come loose, but if set right it will hold in sand mud even a rocky botom. all I ever found a CQR good for is makeing metal scuptures with !! LOL I have a 90 lb one for a mail box holder LOL I am looking for a new anchor for our new to us boat ! cus it has a Fortess for primary anchor. Sorta looking at the Manson "power boat" anchor or the Mantus for this 51ft boat we are buying.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by GMac

Nor anyone else who didn't fall for the marketing out of one outfit Some still are faling for it though.

The rollbars were to get around the way Alain patented the Spade and it tip weight. As much as they tried they couldn't find another way bar the rollbars.

Are you saying that the rollbar on the Rocna serves no function and can be cut off with no loss of righting ability (or any other desired characteristic)? If so, mine is gone tomorrow.

Mark

[GMac]

Hell no, don't chop it off. It does serve a purpose which is to orientate the anchor the right way for setting when it hits the seabed. I was just trying to say the 'purposely fitted feature' was really only a patent work around to get to the same place.

I have seen and chatted to 2 people who have cut the rollbars off, one a Supreme the other a Rocna and they say they still work well but they have the odd Oppsie when it plays up on setting, which is quite likely the way they have landed.

Once the anchors are well set the rollbar doesn't actually do anything. So if you want to cut it off make sure you set your anchor well first

Lads and lassies. Yes, the newer anchors have borrowed/acquired/re-worked some existing bits and design thoughts off others but that's what is called development and to a degree 'necessity'. When you think about it anchors do one thing so the nature of the best would suggest they will tend to have a lot of common features. Just like cars be they a chinese made Great Wall or a Aston Martin DB9, very differing animals but as they do the same job there is a lot of common design elements.

If you want a newish design SHHP anchor with no rollbar have a suss of the Excel by Anchor-Rite in Aussie. It's loud with a shocking accent, can't spell beer so uses XXXX instead, can't play Rugby and loves giant spring loaded Rats with long tails but it is a bloody good bit of kit. While some of you will look at it and think you are seeing a Delta, if you put the 2 side by side you will see some significant differences. Performance being a very noticeable one.

[impi]

[QUOTE=JonJo;971999]

Originally Posted by jannw

HeHe !! ... Did he seriously say (at 1:45 - 2:05) that they patented a nut and bolt in a slot?????

These are the guys who basically ripped off the Rocna Anchor?



In the same way that Rocna copied Peter Bruce's roll bar, and used long before the Rocna was even conceived, by Wasi and Anchor Right. Not forgetting that the Rocna shank is a copy of the shank developed by Gordon Lyall for the Delta and whilst at it - look at a plan view of the Rocna and a Spade, I wonder which came first.

All anchors today take elements from a previous design, its only Peter Smith who wants to claim, see his website, to be original. And people still believe him and reiterate the garbage.

Shame you posted this ... seems you have a personal gripe with Rocna and in our last correspondence you actually had me 'doing a lot of homework on my initial thoughts' ...

[Chuck Hawley]

Originally Posted by bobconnie

Gosh !! who are all these folks who won't use a danforth anchor but will have a Fortress (a direct danforth copy) for a Big wind anchor ?? all I know for sure is if ya set a danforth anchor properly it will hold!! maybe if ya get a 100+ % wind shift it may come loose, but if set right it will hold in sand mud even a rocky botom. all I ever found a CQR good for is makeing metal scuptures with !! LOL I have a 90 lb one for a mail box holder LOL I am looking for a new anchor for our new to us boat ! cus it has a Fortess for primary anchor. Sorta looking at the Manson "power boat" anchor or the Mantus for this 51ft boat we are buying.

I was lucky to have know Robert Danforth Ogg, or Bob Ogg as he was known to his friends, while he was alive. I had a great conversation with him at his home in Calistoga, CA around 1989. He told me the story about how he and his uncle, Richard Danforth, had come up with the design for the Danforth anchor. The common anchors at that time were Northill and Yachtsman's anchors, and the problem was that they would foul in the shifting currents of SF Bay. Richard and Robert conceived of an anchor that would put both flukes to good use in the bottom, so they wouldn't have an upturned fluke to catch the anchor line in a tidal area. This led to the pivoting fluke anchor, which we know as the Danforth anchor. I believe this was around 1938 or so. The patents on the Danforth Hi Tensile anchor would probably indicate the precise date.

Modern anchors for the most part put all of their surface area to work, either with N.A. Taylor's plow design, or Bruce's three-surface scoop design. An exception would be the Bulwagga, which despite it's holding power, leaves one fluke entirely in the "air" and also provides a surface that can trip the anchor and foul it.

Cheers,

Chuck

PS: I consider myself to be insanely lucky that I have known most of the great anchor designers in the 20th Century, including Ogg, Lyall, Bruce, Don from Fortress, Bob Taylor from USN, and many others.

[svBeBe]

Originally Posted by jannw

HeHe !! ... Did he seriously say (at 1:45 - 2:05) that they patented a nut and bolt in a slot?????

These are the guys who basically ripped off the Rocna Anchor?

Funniest thing I have seen today!

And Rocna knocked off the Wasi Bugel

[JonJo]

It was stated that Manson 'ripped off' Rocna. I was simply setting the record staight with regards who 'ripped off' what. As Gmac said - anchors are designed to do the same thing so they will borrow. I dislike the idea that Manson can be condemned for copying a Rocna (which may of may not be true but there are few identical similarities) but Rocna cannot equally be condemned, for having a shank identical to a Delta, having a fluke toe, identically shaped to a Spade and using a roll bar patented by Peter Bruce (and previously used by Wasi and Anchor Right).

Personally I like a bit of balance.

So, I'll give anyone the opportunity - please define what it is of the Supreme that is a 'rip off' of a Rocna, the roll bar (yes its on a Rocna, but its also on a Bugel, SARCA and was an idea of Peter Bruce in 1970)?, the shank (I think not, not even vaguely similar), the rolled fluke, different manufacturing technique, different shape - so why allow someone to incorrectly condemn Manson without a fair comment in reply?

[JonJo]

Returning to the Danforth anchor - I have often wondered which came first the Danforth or the Baldt, it might be called the Baldt Lightweight, or Baldt Stockless. Superficially they look similar except the Baldts tend to be bigger (but maybe there are monster Danforths). As far as I can ascertain the differences were sufficient for both to obtain individual Patents - so this is not a post from a Troll! The only dates I have were 1939 Patent for the Danforth and late '40's for the Baldt (but these might well be wrong as I have never seen the Patents).

And does anyone know when the Bugel was introduced, the closest I can get is 'late '70s'.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by bobconnie

Gosh !! who are all these folks who won't use a danforth anchor but will have a Fortress (a direct danforth copy) for a Big wind anchor ?? all I know for sure is if ya set a danforth anchor properly it will hold!! maybe if ya get a 100+ % wind shift it may come loose, but if set right it will hold in sand mud even a rocky botom. all I ever found a CQR good for is makeing metal scuptures with !! LOL I have a 90 lb one for a mail box holder LOL I am looking for a new anchor for our new to us boat ! cus it has a Fortess for primary anchor. Sorta looking at the Manson "power boat" anchor or the Mantus for this 51ft boat we are buying.

I'm not sure if this is in response to my post? If so, I did say "danforth style" and I certainly include Fortress in that. I also have a Fortress strapped to my pushpit for use as a kedge, back-up, stern anchor, and tandem anchor (as well as looking salty when strapped to the pushpit).

I don't like it for a primary only because of the direction shift issue, but I would certainly use it in big winds if I knew the winds were going to be reasonably consistent in direction.

[GMac]

Originally Posted by JonJo

So, I'll give anyone the opportunity - please define what it is of the Supreme that is a 'rip off' of a Rocna, the roll bar (yes its on a Rocna, but its also on a Bugel, SARCA and was an idea of Peter Bruce in 1970)?, the shank (I think not, not even vaguely similar), the rolled fluke, different manufacturing technique, different shape - so why allow someone to incorrectly condemn Manson without a fair comment in reply?

The Rocna and Supreme were in development at the exact same time, neither of them knew that but 2 people who work for neither outfits did.

Both are Spade clones. The rollbars weren't ripped from anyone, they were just a means to an end to get around a patent issue. Patents are pretty worthless really. getting one is easy, defending one costs many moonbeams. I know of 3 anchors all of which have a patent on the same thing.

Supreme ripped nothing from the Rocna and the original Rocna ripped nothing from the Supreme. After both had been out for a while Rocna did indeed copy the Supreme sliding shank on it's RRR or Fisherman version. Google and you'll probably be able to find the before and after photos of that Rocna version. The whole rip-off thing is just a total crock of excrement, a case of sour grapes at best really.

What has become public about the Rocna saga is only a tiny amount of what really went on and to rehash it continually doesn't do anyone any favours so it's time to let that all fade away into 'failed marketing land' where it belongs I'd say.

[cwyckham]

Well, my new Manson Boss 45 took forever to get here, but it finally arrived!!

I just test fitted it on the bowsprit of my Niagara 35. It fits! Finally, a new generation anchor that is available in North America and fits the bowsprit with no modifications.

I would have loved to have had a Manson Supreme, but the roll bar means needing to modify the bowsprit to have the roller on the end. I didn't really like that option, though it is workable. I'd rather have the anchor tucked away and easier to get at.

The Boss is more expensive, but the new bow roller for the Supreme isn't free. It works out to a bit less for the Boss, I think.

Also note that the Boss is freaking huge. A 35 would be big enough for almost any purpose, I think, especially coastal sailing. For big wind and offshore, the 45 will be nice, but it's probably overkill. I was amazed it fit.

I haven't tried actually using it yet, but I'm confident it'll do the trick far better than my old 35# CQR did. Check out the comparison picture of the two anchors side by side.