Delta Copy Anchor Doesn't Work

[wsmurdoch]

Originally Posted by Spade Anchor

As far as our research shows there is currently no other anchor on the market with a lead filled tip. ..... Does anyone know of an anchor currently in production that uses lead in the tip not the base?

Lewmar DTX. From Lewmar's website http://www.lewmar.com/node/11599

"The new DTX anchor fills the gap between the existing galvanised and stainless Delta® anchors, allowing boat owners and builders to specify a stainless steel anchor for a significantly reduced outlay.
Made from 316 stainless steel, the DTX anchors feature exceptional anti-corrosional performance and the enhanced aesthetics that stainless anchors offer. Utilising lead ballast encapsulated within the tip of the anchor to achieve the perfect centre of gravity, the DTX offers the initial bite and holding reliability that users of our Delta® anchors have come to expect.

[Spade Anchor]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

Lewmar DTX. From Lewmar's website http://www.lewmar.com/node/11599

"The new DTX anchor fills the gap between the existing galvanised and stainless Delta® anchors, allowing boat owners and builders to specify a stainless steel anchor for a significantly reduced outlay.
Made from 316 stainless steel, the DTX anchors feature exceptional anti-corrosional performance and the enhanced aesthetics that stainless anchors offer. Utilising lead ballast encapsulated within the tip of the anchor to achieve the perfect centre of gravity, the DTX offers the initial bite and holding reliability that users of our Delta® anchors have come to expect.

Thank you for the information. I know this will sound spammy or maybe a sales pitch (admins please remove if so). But with that particular design ( Lewmar DTX) if they did create a ballast tip by using lead, they have it upside down. A true ballast creates a self righting action for the anchor eliminating the need for a roll bar. Physics dictates that the ballast wants the concave surface to be upright, the DTX is convex so the ballast will be fighting with the overall design.

Simply: If you had the bottom of your boat lined with lead it will still float, if you flipped your boat over and it still had the lead lined bottom it would sink.

[colemj]

I think you are applying a wrong principal in this case. First, I can't see any difference between the SS Delta and the SS DTX other than lead is used instead of stainless steel for ballast in the DTX. This may be where the "slightly reduced" cost comes from.

Simple physics shows that the heaviest part attempts to be the lowest part. Ballast doesn't care about concave or convex - a heavy tip in either will try to be the lowest part. Lead or steel make no difference in the ballast, provided they have equal in-water weight.

Making the tip be the lowest part is the only purpose of the ballast in the Delta/DTX. It isn't for self-righting - it is only for the tip to be on the ground. The design of the ears and shank help it self-right, with the help of the ballast tip to orient it correctly. The ballast is not fighting the rest of the design.

I don't understand your sinking boat analogy. If a bottom-ballasted boat were flipped, it would want to flip back around, not sink. That has been the whole purpose of ballast since the first days of boats.

But all of that misses the point that a boat cannot sink in either configuration unless the weight of ballast exceeds the displacement of the boat. Just because one presents a different surface shape to the water does not change the displacement of its volume.

If you meant to imply that the boat would fill with water and sink if inverted, then I missed your point again regarding the analogy with anchor shape.

Mark

[Liam Wald]

My current primary anchor is a Rocna but prior to that my primary anchor was a Delta.
I used the Delta for 5 years anchoring hundreds of times and it never failed to set and stay set. I kept the Delta. It is stored in the lazarette as a back-up.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

My Delta was a genuine Lewmar Delta 44 lbs. It dragged in mud. It failed to set in sand and gravel, or sand and shells. Since I switched to a Rocna I've anchored in all of the same locations and it never failed to set and never dragged. My wife refers to it as the "Rocna of Gibraltar!"


S/V B'Shert

So far my experience also. Down the coast of Ca., Mexico.

[Kim Gregory]

Thanks for the posts about the LEAD!

I have a 15 kg delta copy like Michael's 10 kg anchor ( even the stickers are in the same spots ). It easily balances with the shank on the ground, and the foot up in the air ( see photo). I have used this more than 30 times, and have not dragged, but I can see that it may land on the bottom like this, and drag.

I had some lead left over from my house roof vents, and melted it into the foot of the delta through the drain hole in the back of the foot. It now weighs 19.5 kg ( 43 lb ), and does not balance with the shank on the bottom. It now flops over, with the point of the foot on the ground now!

[Michael Conway-Brown]

Do you who made that anchor? The chandler finally took mine back and I bought a Rocna from them which was not available previously. Original choices available were Lewmar copy of Bruce, Lewmar plough copy, copies of Danforth, and what I thought was a Delta that appeared the best choice after reviewing tests. They don't know where they got the Delta copy.

[Kim Gregory]

Micheal,
My friend bought the windlass & anchor bundle from the Rigging Shoppe in Scarborough, and sold me the anchor ( The anchor is made by Force 7, Chinese copy of a Delta ). I like it, and will keep it now that I solved the balance problem with the extra lead.

Force 7 link: https://www.blyacht.com/en/force-7-d...e-anchors.html

I hope your new Ronca gives you many peaceful nights!

[Spade Anchor]

Originally Posted by colemj

I think you are applying a wrong principal in this case. First, I can't see any difference between the SS Delta and the SS DTX other than lead is used instead of stainless steel for ballast in the DTX. This may be where the "slightly reduced" cost comes from.

Simple physics shows that the heaviest part attempts to be the lowest part. Ballast doesn't care about concave or convex - a heavy tip in either will try to be the lowest part. Lead or steel make no difference in the ballast, provided they have equal in-water weight.

Making the tip be the lowest part is the only purpose of the ballast in the Delta/DTX. It isn't for self-righting - it is only for the tip to be on the ground. The design of the ears and shank help it self-right, with the help of the ballast tip to orient it correctly. The ballast is not fighting the rest of the design.

I don't understand your sinking boat analogy. If a bottom-ballasted boat were flipped, it would want to flip back around, not sink. That has been the whole purpose of ballast since the first days of boats.

But all of that misses the point that a boat cannot sink in either configuration unless the weight of ballast exceeds the displacement of the boat. Just because one presents a different surface shape to the water does not change the displacement of its volume.

If you meant to imply that the boat would fill with water and sink if inverted, then I missed your point again regarding the analogy with anchor shape.

Mark

Physics dictates that the narrowest heaviest point will penetrate first. That is the principle I was referring to. That being said when looking at the design of that convex anchor its obvious that the narrowest heaviest point is on the top side of the fluke tip making the design upside down.

[Tetepare]

For 21 years my primary anchor has been a Delta.

The only time the Delta has dragged was when I figured it would- on a stony bottom.

It is OK in sand. In mud I usually have to power it out. I cannot imagine a Delta, once set, dragging. Yes, in big blows it will plow several feet, but all it does is dig in deeper. I've rode out 65mph fronts, severe storms, and even watched a tornado pass overhead. All on the Delta.

When I think of the physics of things, I suppose a Delta with 110' chain may decline to set, after all, with all that weight it's just being dragged sideways over sand. Still, I cannot fathom a Delta, even with 110' chain, failing to set in mud (unless it's weedy).

I set the Delta a bit differently. Usually with 2:1 scope I put tension on the anchor rode, which lifts the shank of the anchor, and thus tilts the point down. A few sharp jerks on the rode get the anchor to start to set. From there you can do just about whatever you want and it will continue to set just fine.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by Michael Conway-Brown

I visited the chandler who sold me the anchor, and they think it is made by "Force 7". I still await a call-back from the distributor for clarification. It definitely is not a "Delta by Lewmar", but the chandler said it is very likely their tag said exactly that, as I remember. New to sailing, I relied on their advise. I agree that this problem should not be associated with Lewmar if it's not their product. But Lewmar had about six opportunities to reply to my queries and chose not to. No sympathy for them. I have found a thread on sail.net with exactly the same issue: a Delta copy that would never set. Possibly the same product. And yes I will be replacing it with a "new gen" anchor to augment the Fortress, Danforth, and Northill I currently carry. The distributor said they've sold 250 with only my complaint. Go figure. I challenge anyone to set this anchor in any bottom (of the ocean that is).

That is an insane number of anchors for a Haida 26. Where are you putting them all? You'll do fine with a new gen and a fortress. Sell the Danforth and Northill to fund the new gen anchor.

[Michael Conway-Brown]

It actually came with more. It was cruised to the south seas, Chile, Mexico, and Hawai'i; I guess the previous owner wanted choices. I have done about what you suggest. New Rocna 10 for the bow, and the oversize Fortress on the stern. I might hang onto the Northill cause they're rare and good.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

clip...

I set the Delta a bit differently. Usually with 2:1 scope I put tension on the anchor rode, which lifts the shank of the anchor, and thus tilts the point down. A few sharp jerks on the rode get the anchor to start to set. From there you can do just about whatever you want and it will continue to set just fine.

I have always set any anchor about that way. I run it down until it hits the bottom, and then let out about 10-20 feet, and, as I've not got much way on, usually, yet, astern, I feel it bite. Another 10-20 feet at a time, same deal, allowing it to dig just a bit deeper each time, and keeping the chain straight forward and in line with the shank.

As the scope ratio increases, the point goes deeper relative to the ground, continuing to bury. My standard other than for a lunch stop where we'll remain on the boat, where it might be 5-1 (from the roller to the bottom), is 7-1 minimum, and as much as 10-1 if we have any concerns. That's all chain...

However, on what is now my secondary, a 55# Delta, I have dragged twice.

The first was a quarter mile overnight, amazingly missing marker posts, docks, other boats and everything else on the way to grounding, softly, in front of someone's house, and nearby to their dock. That was in Oxford MD, muddy, soupy bottom, and lots of wind, thankfully, straight down the channel. We kedged off as the wind died and the tide rose, and deployed our 75# CQR (ya, I know - we sold it later) in a Bahamian moor for the balance of our visit.

The second was in front of Chat'n'Chill/Volleyball Beach in George Town; a squall came through and did a 180 degree change while we were off the boat; someone jumped aboard and deployed our 75# CQR to stop us nearly immediately. The boat right behind us (in the changed direction) ALSO dragged, conveniently, so we didn't hit him.

We've had several squalls to 40+ and have (yet to) not dragged with our 33KG Rocna. As much of the bottom as we dredge up EVERY time, I can't imagine we ever would in anything less than a hurricane - but there's a first time for everything.

Anyway, I agree with the technique but take it further in that I provide several small hits via small amounts of chain let out each time, before finally backing with the snubber deployed.

[ZipTie]

Originally Posted by Michael Conway-Brown

I bought an anchor called Delta by Lewmar that does not set. I have dragged it slowly astern on 110 feet of chain numerous times without it catching. The point does not touch down, it drags on its side. I've emailed Lewmar several times, but they don't respond. Has anyone had any experience with this anchor or Lewmar? Neither seem to work.

PLOW ANCHORS are designed to PLOW the seabed to the sides, same as it would plow a corn field to plant corn.

If you want to put a nail into the earth, you need a CONCAVE anchor. Any new Gen anchor will nail you to 1 location. Rocna, Mantus, Manson, Spade

[Michael Conway-Brown]

My only concern about the Rocna, which I haven't used yet, is lifting the extra weight of seabed that comes up with it. No windlass. The Fortress works infinitely better than the bad Delta copy. Any thoughts on technique to dump the dirt out of the concave cup of the Rocna after tripping and before lifting? Maybe dragging it for a bit after tripping? The Fortress is lighter than the chain, and it's often difficult to tell when it touches down. Not a real problem. I have no doubt that if you get the Delta copy to start biting, it would then set and hold. But it wouldn't bite.

What I want to learn now is what the stickers say on the Force 7 anchor. I remember the Lewmar name, but my memory may have it wrong.