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Old 12-05-2014, 01:58   #31
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

Noelex,

When you give the Excel the same complimentary treatment you are doing of the Mantus (you still have not looked at the bolts that hold it together) you might be qualified to comment. You have never tried an Excel - save your criticism until you have used one.

Frankly I find it, I'll try to to be 'nice' and not fall foul of the moderators, that you are happy to extol the virtues of the Rocna - and you have used one for a significant number of years and constantly define the number of days you have been at anchor and not once have you mentioned that a Rocna clogs - many people have posted of Rocna's clogging but you - with so many nights at anchor, so many anchorages - not one word. Credible?

I fail to understand how you can make negative comment on use of a cast steel toe, its environmentally friendly, its cheap, its does not melt if you ever need to re-gal. The major advantage is - it works - but you would not know this as you have never used one.

Equally - you have never used an alloy Excel. I have used one for the last 12 months. Please try to accept that using one is better then guessing. You think it so important to bag the Excel - please buy and try one of each (like I have done), try them and then comment.

I rate the Excel along with a Spade. But you have not tried the Spade either - but you feel free to bag it, whenever possible.

In the interim you sound awfully like a salesman, for another anchor maker.

Jonathan
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Old 12-05-2014, 02:09   #32
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

i really like the holding power off my manson supreme it really grabs using all chain helps too.
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Old 12-05-2014, 02:52   #33
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

Jonathan, you helped develop the steel Excel anchor by testing a prototype of the anchor on your own boat before it was released to the public. You recently did the same thing with the aluminium Excel.

I can understand you have a soft spot for the anchor(s). I also think you can lay claim to having more experience with the two Excel anchors than anyone else, but that does not mean other opinions are unworthy.

I base most of my judgements on observing anchor performance underwater (as well as noting which boats drag and talking to fellow cruisers about their anchor experiences). I can only offer my views based on this. Like any post on Cruising Forum you are free to disagree, or ignore it.

For the record I think the steel Spade is a top notch anchor, something I have said on many occasions.
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Old 12-05-2014, 03:09   #34
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

Perhaps the differences sailers are reporting when using the same anchor are in the length/weight of chain and rope, scope, local seabed characteristics, ways of bedding the anchor in.
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Old 12-05-2014, 03:43   #35
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

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Originally Posted by JonJo View Post

In the interim you sound awfully like a salesman, for another anchor maker.

Jonathan
what a funny statement since I always get the feeling that you are an anchor salesman far as your CF postings go
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Old 12-05-2014, 03:54   #36
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

Far as I am aware - we all paid for our Excels. Not sure if thats the case for some of the other anchor proponents. Its a bit like the mono multi thing. There are those with a strong opinion, that is unencumbered by any direct and relevant experience.
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Old 12-05-2014, 07:29   #37
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

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Can I save a year or two and just get an answer
There is no one answer. It's about educating yourself. That's what this forum is really about. Not someone telling you what to do because they read it on another forum or thread here.
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When it comes to anchors, looks like size does matter. Phoned up a guy last night who had a second hand plough anchor for sale which was also about 3 kg. His sales pitch was that it had a very heavy chain and that made all the difference on how well it held. After saying bye bye, I checked up on the internet and found Rocna to be the latest improved development from other anchors. Before I spend the relative big bucks on this, does anyone have one find it's the best? Probably more internet searching will show up another "best"
But it is true that chain weight has a huge effect on how an anchor performs. I have a Rocna and it works very well.

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If you are into buying 'second hand' then I would not even think of a Rocna.

Rocna are not THE best, they are simply one of a bunch of good anchors but if you check posts on this forum you will find a surprising number of people complaining that they clog with mud and weed. Others suggest this never happens, or never mention it happening to them. This suggests they only anchor in sand, or are economic with the truth. Clogging might be more of an issue with the smaller models? Unfortunately you have to decide, if you are to follow that style, whether this is likely to be applicable to you.
Jonathan
Right...but you have never had a Rocna. Just reports via post on the Internet. Depending on where I have anchored and what bottom I'm in factors if I bring up muck or not. What's the big deal if my anchor has muck on it? I merely leave the anchor just under the surface while motoring 1+ knot and wait until it is clean.

Quote:
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This is not an isolated post, if it was a one off I would not have mentioned it - there are other similar comments, though with less detail. Interestingly comments about roll bar anchors clogging have come to light recently, no-one admitted this previously - but there was a long running thread on use of the Manson Supreme in weed - which went into the problems in some considerable detail, since then owners have become a bit more 'honest?'.

Jonathan


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Quote:
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Would you care to elaborate? The Canadian versions of the Rocna are much sought after as they were made of better steel. What makes yours junk?

I have no complaints about the quality of the steel, not sure about the Galvanizing job yet.
I think they got the design wrong. The angle of incidence of the plow is not enough. You need too much chain on the bottom to not have the shank lift and decrease the angle of attack when you pull back on it. Or perhaps the shank is to long I don't know. I've watched it on a hard bottom with just 50' ft of chain in 15' while backing down. It will dig in enough to straighten out the chain, then the chain lifts the shank and it pulls back out. The roll bar might help if it landed up side down and does make a great handle Given how wide the thing is it probably needs the roll bar. I have seen it stop digging in, many times right at the roll bar. I can only think it sometimes stops the anchor from going any deeper. With such a large surface area, once it loads up with bottom gunk it does not seem to shed it's load and re set very well. I would be very worried with a really big wind shift over a bottom that might clog it up and it had to reset. Not sure it would.
I bought it early on in the new style anchor craze. Since then others have, I think, revised the design with new anchors. At the latest boat show I saw anchors that I think would dig in better and shed mud better.
The reason I am thinking of it as a piece of junk right now is, it/we drug really bad not to long ago and I 'm still pissed. I hope to recover because I will have it forever as I don't get a new boat or anchor.
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I'm sure we could "drag up" the faults of all the anchors. All I know is I use to get my CQR to bite in 50% of the time, the first attempt. Probably because it was landing upside-down. I thought this was just the way it was. I can tell you that the Rocna bites in 95% of the time, first go-around.
I would tell the OP to be aware of taking advice from people who do not have a boat.
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Old 12-05-2014, 08:29   #38
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

I've used a danforth, plow, CQR, delta and bulwagga. For mixed sand and grass the Bulwagga is my favorite. I find the thin blades really penetrate through grass and hard sand better than the others.

Not sure if you can get those in Aus or not.
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Old 12-05-2014, 15:29   #39
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

Celestial Sailor,

For the record: I own 2 Rocnas.

I had heard the Bulwagga was no longer in production, but that might simply have been someone trolling (a common problem I have heard). It was never available in Australia and I have never seen one, let alone used one.

Jonathan
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Old 12-05-2014, 21:04   #40
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Fortress have shown that there is the potential of improvement by using aluminium rather than steel.

With conventional ballasted anchors aluminium's higher strength to weight ratio can be utilised to make the the shank and back of fluke lighter in weight. With the addition of the same, or more lead ballast the tip weight could be higher, and the COG better. The toe can be made thinner and sharper. These changes will aid performance.

Unfortunately this potential has not been utilised in all aluminium anchors. The Spade actually lost some performance in the transition. (The steel Spade is a top performing anchor. The aluminium Spade does not perform as well in hard substrates and while still a good performer it does not have the same universal excellence.)

I think in the future we may see the very best performing anchors in all categories made out of aluminium.) To achieve this it going to take an enterprising company to produce new anchor design specifically to take advantage of strength and weakness of aluminium. Fortress have done a good job using extrusions to produce a shank of variable thickness tapering both vertically and horizontally to both dig in better and produce adequate strength (they reportedly use 6061 aluminium which has good corrosion resistance). They also use a "T" section fluke which allows it to be thin and sharp, but still have adequate strength. They developed clever innovations such as the adjustable fluke angle and bolt together construction. The Fortress design is still obviously based on the Danforth, but they have at lest significantly altered the design to advantage of the aluminium material.

Hopefully in the future we will see Fortress's approach extended, and bespoke designs developed specifically for aluminium.

At the moment both Spade and Anchor Right have simply fundamentally copied their steel design with some minor changes such as increasing the thickness of the shank. I don't think is the best approach.

Some opportunities for improvement have been missed. For example the Steel Excel uses steel ballast because it is cheaper and there are problems regalvanising anchors with lead ballast. The aluminium Excel has no such limitations. If the aluminium version has used lead like the Spade (this is not clear) why not redesign the tip to make it smaller and take advantage of the higher inherent density of the lead. A smaller thinner tip would penetrate better especially in difficult substrates such as weed.


The steel Excel anchor is a good performing anchor, but I don't believe it is the best anchor on the market. The aluminium version is new and it will take some time to asses its performance. Anchor Right claim the performance is identical to steel version, but perhaps they are being conservative. Anchor manufacturers are naturally reluctant to rate the strengths and weakness of their different designs.
Nolex,

I also certainly could not say that the steel Excel is the best performing anchor on the market unless I had used them all. It could well be one of the best according to feed back from owners and is better priced and more available in Australia than the Spade.

I am not sure your comments are necessarily valid for the Aluminium Excel either but perhaps Anchoright could help you out.

Cheers
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Old 15-05-2014, 04:45   #41
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

I have researched the net and here on anchors and I am going to buy a Rocna anchor. It is rated by Lloyds of London in a catagory of twice the holding power of a Delta. For times at anchor when I am asleep or the wind is excessive, I will put out two anchors in tandem. A danforth anchor tied a few meters behind the Rocna. The seabed characteristics would favour one of them, but together the holding power should make superman grimace. At the risk of starting world war 3, does anyone see any flaws in this technique
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Old 15-05-2014, 04:59   #42
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

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I have researched the net and here on anchors and I am going to buy a Rocna anchor. It is rated by Lloyds of London in a catagory of twice the holding power of a Delta. For times at anchor when I am asleep or the wind is excessive, I will put out two anchors in tandem. A danforth anchor tied a few meters behind the Rocna. The seabed characteristics would favour one of them, but together the holding power should make superman grimace. At the risk of starting world war 3, does anyone see any flaws in this technique
I could find nothing about rocna being rated by Lloyds of London. Only RINA type approved, and this only related to the non Chinese made ones. As for anchoring with tandem anchors when anchoring over night, it's up to you but will become very old very quickly. If you where caught out with impending storm force or higher winds in a not too protected anchorage then tandem anchors do work well but are a pain to retrieve. Shackle the second anchor, your boats length along your chain from your primary one.

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Old 15-05-2014, 05:11   #43
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

The Rocna would be an excellent choice.

I would not put any faith on the SHHP classification. It has some relevance to large ship anchors, but very little to the sort of anchors we use. There have also be cases of manufacturers claiming certification when it does not exist and others where the manufacturers have extensive control the test conditions.

The criterion for a SHHP power anchor has to hold 6x its mass.
For say a 35lb anchor that's 210 lb. the yachting world tests showed similar sized anchors were holding over 5000lb. Even if it done independently it is a very low standard.

Ignore the certification and make up your own mind.

Tandem anchoring is not necessary for routine anchoring if your gear is an appropriate size.
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Old 15-05-2014, 05:21   #44
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

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does anyone see any flaws in this technique
Yes, what happens when they all end up as a heap on top of each other, how do the anchors sort them selves out. What happens if the tide or wind changes, do they tangle?

If the Rocna is the correct size and you trust it (no reason not to) then why not just anchor to it?

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Old 15-05-2014, 05:59   #45
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Re: Best Anchor for my Sailboat

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Yes, what happens when they all end up as a heap on top of each other, how do the anchors sort them selves out. What happens if the tide or wind changes, do they tangle? Pete
Answer: You would as usual slowly drop each anchor while moving in reverse. The rocna is considered so good that it will hold in a change of direction. However in the real world even the rocna and all others can come loose. If you space the two anchors enough then the rocna should re-bed itself before tangling with the danforth. Having two different anchors gives greater surity that one of them will be best suited for that seabed floor.

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Tandem anchoring is not necessary for routine anchoring if your gear is an appropriate size.
Answer: My gear is of an appropriate size ! However I have to lift the anchor and chain manually and don't want to wrestle a heavy anchor in light winds. If you have the machinery to do that, then get one real heavy anchor and sleep in peace at night [with one eye open] The one I saw on the Queen Mary 2 will hold anything you guys got-forever.
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