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Old 01-04-2014, 05:46   #1
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Bigger is better, part 2

I have this thought that 'Bigger is Better' might have further discussion to run? I would not want to detract from further discussion - I think its healthy - as long as we can try to stick to the topic. Its about concepts, not products, not people. Thread drift is great - as long as it does not personalise.


But the whole concept of 'Bigger is Better; was originally (nothing I conjured up) that having a bigger anchor was part of a ground tackle portfolio that included G7 chain and that use of the bigger anchor was to 'offset' having smaller (lighter) chain but of equal strength to a heavier chain

Many have embraced the bigger anchor but few confess to buying G7 chain.

Why have many adopted part of the mantra but not the other half - do not confuse - not why do we have bigger anchor (been/going through that and we have a thread to continue that discussion) - but why do we not adopt the smaller and stronger chain?

If one half of the thesis is correct and adopted by so many, so in fact inarguable - why not the other half? The argument comes from the same people, the costs of change are not dissimilar - if the proponents are correct why only go, or believe in, half way measures?

G7 chain is available in Europe and America, it fits most windlass, balancing off weight savings its not that expensive, it saves huge weights in the bow locker, its as strong as G3 or G4/G43 for a smaller weight - its advocated by the same people who advocate 'bigger is better'. If their arguments are flawed for chain - why not?

Jonathan
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:12   #2
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

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Why have many adopted part of the mantra but not the other half - do not confuse - not why do we have bigger anchor (been/going through that and we have a thread to continue that discussion) - but why do we not adopt the smaller and stronger chain?
Money. The cost of a new gypsy plus replacing 60m or so of chain. Too much cold hard cash, and a size or so up in anchor is only a few kilos for a lower end size cruising boat, unnoticeable so no need to run around looking to save weight. Why bother if there's no benefit. When you get to the size of something like wind horse the numbers pan out differently.

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Old 01-04-2014, 07:22   #3
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

Very few advantages to G7 chain if one already has 3/8 G4 and a windlass. Adding a few pounds to the anchor can make a huge difference though.
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:31   #4
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

I do have G7 chain. While getting lighter chain has got some bearing on a bigger anchor I don't think the two issues are invariably linked.

I think for most boats the the two solutions, lighter chain and a heavier anchor are answers to different questions.

Most people seem to go for thinner chain as a means of carrying a longer amount of all chain rode.

The desire for a bigger anchor usually comes about because of the poor holding of their existing anchor, or because they listen to cruising people who convince them they they will need a bigger anchor to avoid dragging. (Same thing, the motivation is better holding)

There is a perception that cruising people go for lighter chain at the same time as increasing the size of their anchor to keep the total weight similar, but the numbers do not add up (at least for a cruising boat that will carrying a reasonable amount of chain). The weight difference is much greater going for lighter chain. For example my boat has 100m of G7 10mm the same strength conventional chain would be 13 mm. The difference in weight is almost 200kg (400 lb).

Another way of looking at the problem If I had 13mm chain and wanted to keep the bow weight the same I could increase from say a 40kg anchor to a 55kg anchor just by cutting off less than 4m of chain.

The difference in anchor weight going up one, or two sizes is tiny in the total scheme of things. This is why I am often puzzled why people agonise over the choice. 10-20kg extra is not much on cruising boat. The weight of one or two boxes of wine, or slabs of beer, and no-one debates that weight
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Old 01-04-2014, 14:30   #5
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

Actually people like Peter Smith and Morgan's Cloud et al describe use of G7 chain in the same dissertation on going to a bigger anchor. They link having a bigger anchor with having a smaller chain.

I have seen little discussed focussed solely on going to a bigger anchor or on solely using a smaller chain - the two topics are usually discussed as one issue.

Accepting the cost of G7 chain and the cost of the new gypsy as being an impediment (and a significantly large one as well) - if you were buying a new boat these costs disappear, but again G7 does not seem to be part of the purchase process - despite the weight saving benefits Noelex describes (or an ability to carry longer chain, or combination of both). Plus potentially smaller windlass, less power needed to run the windlass, less deck strengthening for the windlass etc.

One might think that the old chain and old gypsy could be sold?

Jonathan
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Old 02-04-2014, 14:15   #6
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

Hi Jonathan

I think we all here are... How to tell it... Not biased, it is not what is on my mind. May be directed? Directed to some way of thinking by our own needs, practices, cruising grounds and the kind of boat we are sailing.
At this moment I feel the lenguage barier really, but I hope You can catch my thinking.

For example - You are a multihull guy, and You think a lot about weight effectiveness of the possible solutions. Nothing strange - some kilograms here, some there and we soon are talking tons.

On the other hand I'm mono (add to it: not so small mono) guy, and several hundreds kilograms doesn't change much for me - I can easily put two tons more on the boat and be happy. For the moment I'm never sailing with maximum designed displacement for my boat, some two or three tons are ready to be used

I'm not happy with my present chain, I must confess. I do not know why, but on the steel used the longevity of galvanisation is less than I'm used to (it is not a problem of electrolitical corrosion - I have no problem with zincs). Next thing is I want to have 7,5 boatlenghts of chain, and for the moment I have 6.
So, I do intend to replace the anchor chain, by somewhat longer one (about 24 metres - I have enough place in anchor chain locker for it) and I will probably go for G7 chain. Why not? I like to have things stronger, and I have very well strnghtened deck under my windlass already But on the other hand I'm not to change the size of the chain. I'm happy with my windlass and there is not replacement smaller gypsy for this model. To replace all windlass is just loosing a money. And - I want to have a heavy chain. I'm spending most of the time Med-moored.
We both like to visit places, to dine ashore, to return to our boat without hassle in the night. And to take our four legged Deck Security to be transported between anchored out boat and the shore by the means of dinghy is really some hassle
For Med-mooring a heavier chain is a benefit. I can elaborate on this, if You wish, but it is not a matter of this thread, I suppose.

As I wrote once upon a time in an old thread I'm deliberating the possibility of upgrading my anchor one size up. But the size of chain will stay the same as present., even when the replacement will be G7.
Cheers

Tomasz
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Old 02-04-2014, 14:33   #7
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

I think Conachair got it on one, money. I can just imagine the fun trying to locate a new Gypsy for a 25 year old windlass.

So what is it your trying to achieve? create an anchoring system that will work in a Cat 5 that very few will ever need.

I saw a 110 kg stainless steel Ronca on Saturday in a Poole Chandlers. Price £9998 ($16620) to you Sir, o were is the limit?

Actually Jonathan I would like to know what chain and anchor you have on your boat please. Me? 40m of 8mm G3 to a 10kg Delta, and if I ever get close to the WLL of the chain then the bow will be underwater.

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Old 02-04-2014, 14:46   #8
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

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I saw a 110 kg stainless steel Ronca on Saturday in a Poole Chandlers. Price £9998 ($16620) to you Sir, o were is the limit?


Pete
Absolute bargain Pete, paid £9999 for mine
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Old 02-04-2014, 14:51   #9
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Actually Jonathan I would like to know what chain and anchor you have on your boat please. Me? 40m of 8mm G3 to a 10kg Delta, and if I ever get close to the WLL of the chain then the bow will be underwater.

Pete
Here You are, Sir

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1419181

I made the search for You

Best regards

Tomasz
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Old 02-04-2014, 15:20   #10
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

I am, or was, looking at replacing our 8mm G3 with G7. Our chain lacks gal and its very expensive here, in Sydney, to re-gal. I'd also like an extra 20m and I do not want to join 2 pieces together. My windlass will take a new gypsy of a different size (but gypsies are extortionate -$500). But no-one actually makes a 6mm G7 chain. In America you get 1/4 inch and I can get a 1/4 inch gypsy for my windlass - but confirming that the 1/4 inch gypsy is actually compatible with 1/4 inch ACCO G7 a very big ask. (it is possible but I'd need to buy 1m, have it sent here, go down to the windlass maker etc.

So I am aware that changing is not easy - you really need to be committed!

There is no point to getting 8mm G7 it would be twice as strong as my G3 and my G3 is plenty strong enough - find me anyone that has actually broken branded G3 and I might think again

I have other options which I am exploring and which might be more fruitful - watch this space. These other options include 'better', more long lasting galvanising, again watch this space DoubleWhysky, I'm about to test the claims out starting this week.

An option is, having HT short link (DIN 766) specially made, in conjunction with the chain maker (European, not Maggi) and a specific galvaniser (who gals HT product regularly) having the chain galvanised. Early days.

But I would think most modern fibreglass yacht (AWB) owners might re-think G7. Their anchor lockers are small (you'd get in more G7), most AWB's are lightweight, 100m of heavy chain right on the bow is a real issue). I accept that the ideal is to specify from new - but even so - no-one does it (except Noelex). You also need to be less enamoured with catenary and you need to use snubber(s). You'd think G7 would be used in racing fleets, after all they all carry a Fortress - why not G7 - but no, as far as I am aware not one!

So what is the impediment, sometimes its cost - but there are obviously other issues. Given I'm stepping 'outside' most of the boxes - I'm interested as to whether I've missed something. Hydrogen Embrittlement is a non issue in this case.

maybe its a simple as - awareness - and the hang up about chain weight?

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Old 02-04-2014, 22:46   #11
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

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There is no point to getting 8mm G7 it would be twice as strong as my G3 and my G3 is plenty strong enough - find me anyone that has actually broken branded G3 and I might think again
8mm G3 chain only has a safe working load of 0.75 T and a UTS of 3T.
In the Yachting world tests even a humble 35lb Delta held more than 2.3T (this was the maximum they tested) on a couple of occasions.
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Old 02-04-2014, 23:51   #12
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

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8mm G3 chain only has a safe working load of 0.75 T and a UTS of 3T.
In the Yachting world tests even a humble 35lb Delta held more than 2.3T (this was the maximum they tested) on a couple of occasions.

But the 2.3t Delta still drags, there is a contradiction somewhere. We have been there agonised over that!

But

Find me someone who is using the correct sized branded G3 chain - and broke it. 8mm might only have a WLL of .75t, but records of it breaking in use are notable by their absence. Records of deltas dragging are endless.

Your 10mm G7 chain from Maggi has a WLL of 2t (8mm G7 is 1.4t and 13mm G3 2t) you could safely use a 35lb Delta?

On the basis of an anchor chain 4:1 safety factor (I think Maggi work to 5:1) that 2.3t holding capacity (and applying the same safety factor) of the Delta falls to a WLL of 600kg? and given the vagueries of seabeds - probably something even lower.

Jonathan
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Old 03-04-2014, 01:12   #13
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

Cruising boats traditionally had large heavy chain with small anchors. It is only recently we have seen a reversal of this trend. I think it will take some time for the likelihood of chain failure to become clear.

The UL of chain is tested on a small number of links (perhaps10?) for brand new chain in perfect condition and importantly it is a single pull.
In practice you are using several thousand links all individually welded with some wear and subject to repeated loads. This is without considering scenarios where the chain may be subject to side, or point, loads when say it caught around a rock.

8mm G3 chain on a (albeit lightweight) 38 foot cruising catamaran is on the light side. I think the chance of failure is low, but I still don't agree with the statement:


Quote:
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There is no point to getting 8mm G7 it would be twice as strong as my G3 and my G3 is plenty strong enough
It should be rembered that chain failure will result in a very rapid drag. The risks are more serious than a normal drag (where the anchor is attached and providing some resistance), and much more serious than a bent anchor shank or tip. The later normally occurs upon anchor retrieval and the boat is in no danger.
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Old 03-04-2014, 01:49   #14
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

Noelex,

You might be right - and I'm ready to be convinced

Go out and find me evidence of branded chain failure. There was a recent thread on this forum querying chain failure, basically no-one had any comment. There was a similar thread on YBW - one person had had a chain failure (in the weld). The weld is as likely to fail on a G3, as a G4 as a G43 as a G7. Weld failure is a refection on quality control - not wire strength. The weld should always be stronger than the chain.

Some chain makers, America, Europe and Australia, regularly Proof Test, that's approximately 2 times WLL (or about 50% of Break Strength) every chain they make, which covers every link and every weld. It is quite possible, if you ask, to obtain a Proof Test certificate.

It costs approx $10 to test any length of chain you like (in Oz) for Break Strength, upto about 20m (after that you need do multiples) upto 95t load. I doubt many chain makers test a few links. Usually they would test at least 1m from each end, as well as continual Proof Test.

I have just bought 2m of chain, G3, it came with a test certificate, defining, Break Strength, Proof Test, Elongation at Break. The provision of the certificate cost nothing extra.

Just come up with evidence of chain failure, everything else fails, shackles (often operator error - the pins fall out), anchors (they drag they bend), swivels (bend and break) - but not branded chain.

You know if your chain has been stressed beyond Proof Load as it then deforms permanently - and it will then no longer fit your gypsy. Ours remains perfect (which might mean we have stressed it upto its Proof Test limit (or not).



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Old 03-04-2014, 02:26   #15
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Re: Bigger is better, part 2

A quick search of CF came up with some examples. Such as this one on:

Quote:
Originally Posted by afeldma View Post
I have had an anchor chain snap. My double keeled Westerly was anchored in tidal inlet. When tide came in, along with a strong wind, the boat must have floated and shot downwind, snapping the chain.

In similar conditions now, I'd put out a second anchor w/ a nylon rode. Or at least rig a bridle to absorb the shock.

Boat weight about 8,000 pounds. 1/4" proof coil chain. Scope at time chain snapped was more than 10:1 on a CQR anchor.

Boat ended up aground in someone's front yard for a month, till a higher tide came along.
The thread is here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ain-21145.html

I don't think we should become paranoid the risk of breaking chain is low, but we do need to recognise that with trend towards lighter weight chain we entering new ground.

I think you once said that you wanted an anchor shank that has zero risk of bending. (I don't quite agree. With anchor shank and tip strength and think we want a compromise between performance and risk of bending.). We should at least adopt same, or higher, standards for anchor chain.

I don't think your 8mm G3 chain is a terrible choice. It is an acceptable compromise between cost and performance. However, I think if cost was no object higher test 8mm chain would be better for your sized boat. You are a strong advocate for the best anchoring gear (like me) and higher test 8mm chain would give you a more comfortable reserve over your current G3
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