Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[Kettlewell]

whereas cockpit awnings, dodgers, arches etc might actually act as a riding sail reducing peak anchor loads?

Not sure if you meant that sarcastically? In any case, awnings and such are all extra windage not needed in a real blow. Most boats do wander about a bit and when you get a boat with all that stuff aft it probably does hasten the stern back into position, but while it is doing so it is also creating a lot of extra strain on the system. If you have to have windage, it is probably better aft than forward, but it is still a detriment.

One thing you can do if you have time and are willing to go through the hassle is to take off any roller furling jibs up forward--makes a tremendous difference in both the magnitude of the windage and also reduces wandering quite a bit.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

JonJo, isn't this your test?

Sorry forgot all about that!, Yes that's mine.

[charliehows]

the only time i ever had an anchor drag was when my danforth picked up a rock dead centre - and it would have held if a nasty bit of weather hadnt spun the anchor rode under the boat catching it on the speedlog fitting trapping the boat side on to wind and tide. Bad luck always comes in multiples.
i'll still spend the night on the danforth, but if im leaving the boat i put down a bigger is better CQR which has never dragged (yet).
I did some thinking about replacing my oversized CQR with a properly spec'd size of manson (nearly half the weight) but my gut wont let me. If it aint broke...
acknowledge the argument that getting a big anchor up in an emergency is a risk factor in itself - which is why i have the danforth on short chain and mainly rope - it comes up plenty quick.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

One thing you can do if you have time and are willing to go through the hassle is to take off any roller furling jibs up forward--makes a tremendous difference in both the magnitude of the windage and also reduces wandering quite a bit.

This is exactly our experience, K. When stripped down for cyclone Xavier in Port Sandwich, Vanuatu, I was quite surprised at the reduction in sailing about that we experienced (cyclone never arrived nearby despite the bullseye forecast).

Unfortunately, except in the instance of cyclones, which tend to be well documented in advance, it is seldom practical to strip off roller furled sails at anchor... at least for Ann and I. Getting a big genoa off and folded and bagged into a package that will go through the companionway is a struggle at the best of times. If one is in pre-storm blustery winds it is essentially impossible for us.

I would like to try a riding sail on Insatiable II, but she lacks a proper backstay on which to set it. There is a stay to the topmast, but it is of light construction and is intended to induce mast bend, not to accommodate a sail, especially under storm conditions. The practice of using a drogue from the bow is also interesting, and I intend to try it when practical. A friend with a LIdgard 47 (fairly similar boat) has had good results using a big hard plastic drogue in that manner... I dunno where he stows it when not in use!

Cheers,

Jim

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

What three anchors did you try?

Also considering windage, the more and more common practice of keeping solents jibs on furlers behind a light genoa has got to be worth going up an extra anchor size, whereas cockpit awnings, dodgers, arches etc might actually act as a riding sail reducing peak anchor loads?

She came new from FP with a 35 lbs CQR. Was OK, but had to try a few time to get a set. If the wind was really blowing is was much worse to set.

2nd was a 45 lbs Delta. Was much better, but still had some movement at the worst times.

3rd is a Rocna 44 lbs and it has been a few years and no issues so far.

4th, I will try a Mantus 45 lbs this summer, but suspect it may be just like the Rocna. The only difference being that is can be broken down and launched from a dingy, so maybe it could be a 2nd / storm anchor depending on how my testing goes.

[Kettlewell]

Jim:

On some other boats that wandered more than my current one I found it fairly effective to just drop another anchor down on very short scope--maybe just enough so most of the anchor is on the bottom, but not enough to make it likely to dig in and hold. That extra drag kept the bow from blowing off suddenly in big gusts.

[cfarrar]

The practice of using a drogue from the bow is also interesting, and I intend to try it when practical.

I tried it last summer, and I was encouraged. A drogue clipped to the chain 2-3 meters below the surface seemed to reduce the wandering. I need to test the drogue in stronger winds before I'm convinced.

[JonJo]

Cotemar,

I would hardly call your anchors oversize! I think, from memory, your cat has a slightly higher windage than ours, because we have a 2 step deck. In fact your current Rocna is not much different, in size, to ours How come you are an advocate of 'BIB'!

[zeehag]

when i anchor i keep my boat ready to escape in case of need. i do not sacrifice ability to sail out o f an anchorage in case of dire need.
i also scoop air into my hhatches with some tarpage, which also keeps off the hot tropical sun.
i have set cqr and had no problems except when my chain fell into a trough and made the cqr drag in mazatlan's old harbor.
my brucem now primary anchor, is set in a rock at present. i have watched as opb using cqr, rocna and bruce attempt to anchor. is fun to watch.
as i am hooked barely south of a rock, and hooked well with it, most experienced cruisers avoid the area in which i am hooked.
one man with a rocna complained that the rock qas the only place his new rocna didnt hook easily. i splained he was settting on a rock, and my chain is on that rock, he harumphed and went away...yay....
for the most part, i have seen successful set and stay power from all three here in mexico, the rocnas seem very large for the boats anchoring using those, and bruce and cqr appear appropriately sized for boat.
we do have tides and winds affecting our positioning--we turn 360 degrees every 24 hours....

the newer cruisers use rocna, per appearance and discussion. longer term folks do not have those. more cqr and bruce there.

no rope rodes on the experienced cruisers anchors--too many rocks.

the yawing, or wandering, at anchor can be easily diminished by using a bridle to both sides of the bow instead of one side only.....
.

[JonJo]

kettlewell and CFarrar,

We can commend the anchor simply dragging on the seafloor directly under the bow, on a cat its possible to do the same between the transoms (and its more sensible than an angel (or kellet). As someone pointed out - if you have a 50' yacht none of the anchors might be small enough to physically manage. The idea is easy with a 20kg anchor, but needs slightly more thought if they weigh 40kg! I confess solutions for a 38' cat might not sensibly scale up for a 50' yacht (and vice versa) - like taking down furling sails and removing the main! I had not tried a drogue, but had thought of a bucket (stainless)?, but maybe too heavy. How big a drogue?

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Cotemar,

I would hardly call your anchors oversize! I think, from memory, your cat has a slightly higher windage than ours, because we have a 2 step deck. In fact your current Rocna is not much different, in size, to ours How come you are an advocate of 'BIB'!

My cat is light weight 5 tons. Most anchor manufacturers call for a 35 lbs anchor in this weight range, so I just went up one size from 35 lbs to 44 lbs.

Some cruisers go crazy going up two sizes. One size up seems to work well for us

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

BiB means bigger of the same. E.g. a 10 pounder CQR vs. a 20 pounder, both build of the same material (e.g. galvanized steel).


b.

OK, I am stumped! Barnakiel referenced BiB. In a later post Ocean Girl referenced BIB.Too many acronims, I admit I cannot keep up. But in my over 30 years in this stuf I have never heard of BIB or BiB. I thought from OG it could mean "BIG IS BETTER" . But look at Barnakiel's quote, he has bigger but the same anchor type.

Yeah I know its stupid... and I thought I was on top of things. Frankly, until today I never heard the term.

[cfarrar]

How big a drogue?

Just a small fishing drogue (1 meter opening?) clipped to the rode. It's simple to use, and it makes a difference, but I need to do some more experimenting before I can report with confidence. A future thread, perhaps.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

My cat is light weight 5 tons. Most anchor manufacturers call for a 35 lbs anchor in this weight range, so I just went up one size from 35 lbs to 44 lbs.

Some cruisers go crazy going up two sizes. One size up seems to work well for us

5t with fuel, water, food (and essential grog), dinghy, O/B? Most are quoting weight when cruising. We weigh in at 5t, new, but that's without 400l of water, 240l of diesel (not that the tanks are ever full), tool box, storm jib, HF radio, deep freeze, water maker, windgen, liferaft etc etc, an awful lot of etc!

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

On some other boats that wandered more than my current one I found it fairly effective to just drop another anchor down on very short scope--maybe just enough so most of the anchor is on the bottom, but not enough to make it likely to dig in and hold. That extra drag kept the bow from blowing off suddenly in big gusts.

I have also done this a fair few times. very handy effective, quick, and signifcantly reduces the chance of getting the two rodes tangled.

Also if using rope you are much less likely to get the damed rope wrapped around the rudder, keel or self steering.

I generally use rope for a second anchor, the conseqences of getting two chains wrapped is pretty severe. rope can be cut or easily untangled.

Jim. maybe you could try setting a riding sail flying from a tight main halyard or topped up boom... or maybe you need one of those cockpit awnings ;-)

Jonjo. intersting ideas about the effect of momentum and the speed vs weight. Guess it really depends on the boat. In my limited experiance of light boats they just don't seem to load up the anchors like a heavy boat can, even with the extra windage a light boat might have?