Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[barnakiel]

I can imagine the following smaller=better scenarios:

Sometimes all there is to dig in consists of a fine layer of material over a hard rock or coral bed. Perhaps a smaller (shallower) anchor can set in while the bigger one would keep on tripping against the hard bed?

Also, perhaps when the anchorage is a well surveyed spot with good bottom properties, the smaller of two anchors (as long as it provides adequate holding) is the better choice? As some said above - hell to retrieve a big anchor from e.g. thick mud bottom after a strong blow.

barnakiel

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Yes, if the concave anchor doesn't set immediately, it grabs onto the first hunk of weed ahead of it, then just drags along the bottom collecting a big ball of sea weed. The weed ball then prevents it from digging in (it's hand is full). On the Rocna, the roll bar allows it to collect an even larger size ball. One time it took the two of us 1/2 hour in a dinghy to cut the weed ball loose from our Rocna.

To be fair, other anchors would have probably had the same issue. The only solution is to have an anchor that will dig down immediately and bite.

Sounds yucky. Is it common, like most times trying to set in weed or once in a while?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by conachair

Sounds yucky. Is it common, like most times trying to set in weed or once in a while?

It's more of an "Oh my, we've hit the jackpot" kind of situation. Sometimes you win... and sometimes you lose.

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by conachair

Sounds yucky. Is it common, like most times trying to set in weed or once in a while?

A convex anchor would just hook the weed ball as one big ball also and foul.
A weed ball is a weed ball, just as a snagged lobster pot is a snagged lobster post.
Not much you can do, but clear it.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by foggysail

I gave thought to purchasing a Rocna, I was desperate to anchor safely so I could sleep. Back then there was constant salesmanship here in the forums by a merchant raving the benefits of the Rocna over all other anchors and I got turned off.

That is how I ended up with getting my Manson Supreme! I was "this close" to getting a Rocna because the extra money didn't matter to me as much as sleeping. But CS endless trash talking got to me to the point that I wasn't going to do anything that might make money for him. In the end, money well saved (not to say the Rocna isn't a good anchor if you have the good one).

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

It's more of an "Oh my, we've hit the jackpot" kind of situation. Sometimes you win... and sometimes you lose.

Thanks.

Good to know these things can happen before they do.

[Hudson Force]

[QUOTE=Don L;1174724]That is how I ended up with getting my Manson Supreme! I was "this close" to getting a Rocna because the extra money didn't matter to me as much as sleeping............................[QUOTE]

I'm often thinking of the "extra money".... This reminded me of Dockheads comment about the galvinized anchors sticking with more resistance than the shiny stainless steel beauties,- some too pretty to ever stick in the mud, but jewels on the bow. I must confess to not yet joining the ranks of those with the modern anchors. This comes party with the "old codgers" ability to sleep with the anchors he's used for forty years and depending as much on the choice of anchoring location, setting technique, and chain rode length than as the anchor selection.

So here's my confession, over my forty-two years of liveaboard cruising the only new anchor I ever bought was a little mushroom for my dinghy and one folding grapnel that I wanted for rock, but I've never deployed it! I've always had multiple anchors and over the years they've included Danforths, North-Hills, CQRs, Bruces and Habourfast Hi-Blades. There were two sad days when I had to cut away my Harbourfast Hi-Blades. Just a year apart I found myself twice snagged in bottom debris in turbid water with a harsh current where I would not risk diving to retrieve these favorites. On one of these ocassions I was able to raise a piece of cement and rebar in the tangle before giving up!

Back to the point of spending money for the anchor,- all my anchors used on my vessel have been purchased for less than $100 US at consignment shops and salvage yards. Sure, I inspect them, but their task provided for me does real well used or even ugly. If I can continue cruising into my seventies, I'll likely be buying someone's cast off "convex roll-bar" classic.

[Ocean Girl]

Originally Posted by JonJo

A thesis was proposed that a bigger anchor was better than 2 anchors.

I really enjoyed this thread. It seems no matter how many times we cover this topic, weeding through the replies, a new angle is discussed and I learn something new.

I would rather have one everyday ground tackle set up, properly sized for heavy weather, then a two ground tackle set up, properly sized for heavy weather. Simplicity wins out in this situation, two anchors, however rigged, have a bigger chance of fouling. Furthermore, I don't trust the anchor sizing charts, most use outdated data, from conditions far below what the full time cruisers encounter. But I may be misinformed, shrug, if over sizing is overkill, ok, like someone said earlier, you don't worry at 2am that you should of gotten a smaller anchor.

This week we had 60-70 knot winds, sustained, not forecasted, at least not the crazy high winds. A bunch of boats were lost. Even though the boats were in a marina, the docks failed and boat owners were not at fault, the example is still a good one. Weather is very unpredictable, your ground tackle has got to be ready for extreme situations, And it's just not logical to put out two anchors everyday.

Has anyone brought up Cabo San Lucas? The Pardeys did a very good write up on what went wrong. I think it was in their Capable Cruisers book..? Many boats had undersized anchors, poor ground tackle set up, poor judgement in general. That well written chapter really helped me look at the anchor as just one link in the safety of the vessel. No use having a big anchor if it is improperly attached to the boat. Or, what seemed a common finding, attached to a rode that isn't captured, thereby ripping the boat apart in extreme waves.

My parents sailed around the world, they say BIB, have a BIB back up, always be ready to high tail it out of an anchorage. I trust their judgment the most.

Anyways, great discussion
Erika

[DumnMad]

CaptForce "I must confess to not yet joining the ranks of those with the modern anchors. This comes party with the "old codgers" ability to sleep with the anchors he's used for forty years and depending as much on the choice of anchoring location, setting technique, and chain rode length than as the anchor selection."

I've noticed there are a lot of very experienced cruisers who would agree with you and it is why your boats are not in pieces on the rocks somewhere. The saying "its a poor workman who blames his tools" comes to mind.
I'll still upgrade to a modern, relatively heavy anchor because my cruising experience is minimal.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

CaptForce "I must confess to not yet joining the ranks of those with the modern anchors. This comes party with the "old codgers" ability to sleep with the anchors he's used for forty years and depending as much on the choice of anchoring location, setting technique, and chain rode length than as the anchor selection."

I've noticed there are a lot of very experienced cruisers who would agree with you and it is why your boats are not in pieces on the rocks somewhere. The saying "its a poor workman who blames his tools" comes to mind.
I'll still upgrade to a modern, relatively heavy anchor because my cruising experience is minimal.

Thanks, but don't put too much on my anchoring experience as a cause for me not to be in pieces on the rocks. I was blown to shore by a tropical wave with my trailing anchor in the Keys and only chance took me to a muddy bank instead of the nearby bridge pylons. I have sometimes dropped that dinghy mushroom anchor off my bow with a small line led through a vent and tied to a sauce pan on the floor of my head. If the sauce pan hits the ceiling, I'm awake and dashing to see where I'm dragging!

[Ocean Girl]

Originally Posted by CaptForce

Thanks, but don't put too much on my anchoring experience as a cause for me not to be in pieces on the rocks. I was blown to shore by a tropical wave with my trailing anchor in the Keys and only chance took me to a muddy bank instead of the nearby bridge pylons. I have sometimes dropped that dinghy mushroom anchor off my bow with a small line led through a vent and tied to a sauce pan on the floor of my head. If the sauce pan hits the ceiling, I'm awake and dashing to see where I'm dragging!

That alarm idea rocks! No pun intended

[JonJo]

I know no-one will like this:

In the next 12 months I'll take 3 pairs of anchors, one big, one small of concave, convex and slightly concave modern designs. I'll set the small one fully, shank just showing on the surface. I'll then set the matching bigger half to the same load (same seabed, same scope). I'll actually choose one smaller one, set it and then set all the others to the same load. I'll then measure the load and record what happens when pulled at 90 and 180 degrees. I'll try to do this in two seabeds (but cannot promise). I'll try to ensure one seabed has some weed in it. If anyone can add to this, within reason, I'm open to suggestions. But if anyone wants to do this, or something similar, first - be my guest. I know it will not satisfy, probably anyone, but it might be interesting


But it has been an interesting thread, and I apologise for provoking - but it had the desired effect, people did respond with extra information that they had not posted earlier. Its a bit like people admitting that concave carries mud and can choke - it took a lot of needling before this admission became apparent, and now most people seem to accept it might be a characteristic of concave roll barred anchors (some have even made it into a positive attribute.

It was interesting that some people strongly supported 'bigger is better' but a review of the first anchor poll suggests they do not put their money where their keyboard is - but it is the internet!

But we have all thought and articulated our views and most people seem happy, and sleep with their choices - and like yachts themselves (or choice of yachts) it would not do if we all had the same ideals and dreams and did the same things.

I'm not quite sure why we get so passionate about anchors but not sails, or antifoulings (or have i missed some passionate painters.

The use of a wire trace, or leader, is not so unusual. In fact its almost common. There is a big safety issue, wire wears, or corrodes - people do not change the wire and someone, somewhere is liable. Commerce did not like the risk when leisure sailors were involved.



Cotemar - Peter Smith has not sold his business, he simply transferred the manufacturing license from one marketing company to another. Both marketing companies use(d) the same manufacturer in China, though the new marketing company has introduced the novel idea of quality control. Peter still owns the copyright/design, or whatever, and presumably still draws a fee for each item sold. It was Peter's son Craig who was the 'passionate' one on the forum and someone must have identified that the name, Rocna, was sufficiently well know without Craig's further influence.

[DumnMad]

JonJo. Your experiment sounds a bit myopic. I tiny sample compared to cruisers who have been living on anchor for decades. It would have no value in comparison to real experience and real science.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

Concave anchors work fine in weed. The OP had a little product steering going with a bit of sarcasm mixed in

I suspect we have seen plenty of product steering. I recall a rather strong Excel/plough analogy.

Been an interesting thread so far and certainly has identified that no anchor is perfect including concave.

One can get a broader view listening to the differing viewpoints and philosophy behind the varied approaches to anchoring. I personally tend towards BIB and consider a cruisers anchor system is one of the most important of vessel systems. Too many vessels at anchor destroyed in my home area of the Whitsundays.

We currently have a 50% possibility of a cyclone developing by the end of this week in the Coral Sea.

Cheers

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

JonJo. Your experiment sounds a bit myopic. I tiny sample compared to cruisers who have been living on anchor for decades. It would have no value in comparison to real experience and real science.

What science?