Anchoring 32' Sloop

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Paradox111

Danforth vs Fortress. Anchor Test Video #101

And hence my love for the Danforth 20H, in a straight line pull. In fact all the Danforth Hi Tensiles. I am not sure why Steve chose the 20H to go up against the FX16. I would have thought that the Danforth 12H would have been right sized competition. I suspect the 12H would perform better that the Fortress there too.

I think your choice of going with more chain is a good one.

[rgleason]

Paradox thank you for posting those S/V Panope Anchor Tests.
1. It appears there are better anchors available now than the Bruce 22.
2. The steel Danforth 22S 25lb seems to set better than Fortress, due to sharper edges and weight. Thanks Don.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Paradox thank you for posting those S/V Panope Anchor Tests.
1. It appears there are better anchors available now than the Bruce 22.
2. The steel Danforth 22S 25lb seems to set better than Fortress, due to sharper edges and weight. Thanks Don.

I am not sure about the 22S, I haven't used one and Steve tested the 20H which is stronger and a bit sharper than the 22S. Still, once it sets, I'd bet on any Danforth.

[rgleason]

Steve from s/v panoply said the difference between anchor performance appears to be in the details, not the broader concepts or types.

I've had a chance to think about how we use our Bruce 22. We always have a scope between 6:1 and 8:1 except perhaps at Block island Great Salt Pond where the area we anchor has been tilled up a lot, and we add more scope. Our Bruce performs like a champ under those conditions. Yes in cramped anchorages that are more sheltered we choke up to 4 and 5:1.

This testing is being done at 5:1 and I am not so sure that was the intended minimum scope used in the engineering phase for the Bruce anchor.

I realize Steve had to pick a standard for scope, but the Bruce works much better with more scope, we've found. (So does every anchor!)

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Steve from s/v panoply said the difference between anchor performance appears to be in the details, not the broader concepts or types.

I've had a chance to think about how we use our Bruce 22. We always have a scope between 6:1 and 8:1 except perhaps at Block island Great Salt Pond where the area we anchor has been tilled up a lot, and we add more scope. Our Bruce performs like a champ under those conditions. Yes in cramped anchorages that are more sheltered we choke up to 4 and 5:1.

This testing is being done at 5:1 and I am not so sure that was the intended minimum scope used in the engineering phase for the Bruce anchor.

I realize Steve had to pick a standard for scope, but the Bruce works much better with more scope, we've found. (So does every anchor!)

My rule of thumb for overnight/long stays has always been 3xloa plus depth and my Bruces have worked well.. if wind picks up over 20kts I will lay out more.
If it's just a lunch stop and calm I 'may' use less.
Also I prefer all chain on my boats.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Pete7 what is the length and displacement of your boat?

The length is 31 feet and weight 4670 kgs according to the Moody specs. We actually weigh 5100 kgs on a crane with dinghy, outboard, water and diesel etc.

So the 12Kg Vulcan is a good fit for us. Its also shorter than the 10Kg, photo of the two alongside each other. We have 45m of 8mm chain plus 10m of double braid rope just in case.

Btw, if you can find an Anchorman manual they would be a good manual wndlass solution. There was a brand new one advertised on here that Franiska snapped up recently, so they are about.

Pete

[rgleason]

@Pete I have to convert it 4670kg=10295lbs 5100kg=11,234lbs so that is right in the ballpark for our boat! Nice boat BTW.

...12Kg Vulcan is a good fit for us...shorter than the 10Kg ..have 45m x 8mm chain plus 10m of double braid rope just in case.

Very good to know. That amount of chain is more than I'd like on our bow considering where we go (45 meters of 8mm is 150' x 1.03 lbs/ft= 150 lbs) but you probably need it for your cruising area. Thanks very much, very helpful. Will check out the anchorman manual they weigh 14.5 lbs.

How long have you had Vulcan 12 and how do you like it? What did you have before?

@Boatman I like that rule of thumb

3x LOA plus depth for Bruce Anchors

That is basically what we do, adding scope to that when needed (confounding unthinking powerboaters who always pick to cross our bow) Thanks.

[rgleason]

@Manateeman I found this post of his "I’ve written before on the Kodiak system which uses big floats and a snubber to a waterline strong point or block."
Can someone provide a link to his description of the Kodiak System? I'd like to understand it better.

[rgleason]

Peter Smith: Boat Anchors
Peter Smith Esaay on Rocna - All the old generation designs suffer from a basic lack of surface area – for any given anchor weight, there is simply not as much resistance as would be ideal.
Peter Smith: New Generation of Anchors
Peter Smith: Coast Guard Bottom line, all chain is preferred. For long rope rodes polyester is generally superior to nylon, as the latter stretches which encourages “sailing” when at anchor. Three-strand nylon tends to harden in the marine environment and becomes difficult to handle, and tends to twist, and knot, under load. At the high end multiplait (either polyester or nylon) rope makes ideal anchor rode, as it is easy to handle, and stows in less space. Other good points in this article.
Independent Testing from 2006 - 2015
Robertson's TAT Testing for Anchor Right


Rocna Original Selector rollbar galvanized

• Rocna 15kg (33lbs) Chain 8mm (5/16") G43 Titan Shackle 3/8" HD Forged, for 33' boat, displacement 17000 lbs (Rocna 10 is too small)

Vulcan Selector no rollbar galvanized

• Vulcan 12kg (27 lb) Chain 8mm (5/16") G43 Titan Shackle 3/8" HD Forged, for 33' boat, displacement 13230 lbs

Super Sarka Galv Steel & Stainless Steel Rollbar (Don't like their sizing, anchors are too heavy)

• Super SARCA Anchor No 4 Boat Length 7.5 - 9.0 Boat Weight (tons)2.3-5 T Weight(kg):13.5kg (29.7 lbs) (Too short, heaviest would consider)
• Super SARCA Anchor No 5 Boat Length (m):9.0 - 10.0 Boat Weight (tons):3.5-5 T Weight(kg):15.5kg (34 lbs) <50 knots
• Super SARCA Anchor No 6 Boat Length (m):10.0 - 12.0 Boat Weight (tons): 5-11 T Weight(kg): 22.0kg (48 lbs) (way too heavy)

Sarka Excel Galv. Steel & Stainless Steel Concave, no roll bar

• No 3 Boat Length (m):7.0 - 10.0 Boat Weight (tons):2.8 - 3.5T Weight(kg):12.5kg (26 lbs) (Boat Wt too little)
• No 4 Boat Length (m):10.0 - 12.0 Boat Weight (tons):3.5-7 T Weight(kg):16.0kg (35 lbs) Cruising<50 knots
• No 5 Boat Length (m):12.0 - 15.0 Boat Weight (tons):7-15 T Weight(kg):22kg (48 lbs) (Overkill!}

Mantus Sizing Galv. Steel Rollbar. Cruising mostly on anchor. high sustained winds (50 kts) and assume poor holding conditions (low viscosity bottoms).

• Anchor Size 25 lbs. Boat 25'-30' <11,000 lbs Blade area 800 cm2 - Cruising Anchor for winds <50 knots.
• Anchor Size 35 lbs. Boat 25'-30' <11,000 lbs Blade area 1000 cm2 - Storm Anchor for winds >50 knots.

Fortress Sizing Aluminum

• Boat Length 28-32' FX-11 Working Load 900 lb, Hard Sand 3600 lb, Soft mud 750 lb Chain 1/4" Rope 3/8" Daysailing
• Boat Length 33-38' FX-16 Working Load 1200 lb, Hard Sand 5000 lb, Soft mud 1200 lb Chain 5/16" Rope 1/2" <50 knots
• Boat Length 39-45' FX-23 Working Load 2000 lb, Hard Sand 12000 lb, Soft mud 1800 lb Chain 3/8" Rope 3/8" > 50 knots

Viking For 32' boat

• Near Gale 30 knots will have 800 lbs Beaufort
• Storm 42 knots will have 2100 lbs
• Violent Storm 60 knots will have 3200 lbs

Also from their webpages:

• Viking 7 wt 5.2kg (11 lbs), displacement 7,000kg (15,430 lbs). Length 20-30ft. Fluke Area 513 cm2 $229 Est. Holding Power 900kg (1980 lbs) - Storm 42 knts 1400-1800 lbs OK
  
• Viking 10 wt. 9.5kg (21 lbs), displacement 10,000kg (22,000 lbs) Length 30-40ft. Fluke Area 743 cm2 $339 Est. Holding Power1,900kg (4180 lbs) - Violent Storm 60 knts 3200 lbs OK
  
• Viking 15, wt. 12.6kg (27.8 lbs), displacement 15,000kg (30,000 lbs), Length 40- 50ft, Fluke Area 1064 cm2 Est. Holding Power 2,600kg (5,720 Lb) - Not necessary, but would be better
• Holding power to anchor weight

[rgleason]

This morning I received a note from Iso Kalvo in response to some specific questions about an anchor and gear for our boat.

Long story short, because of your weight sensitivity I would suggest using the Viking 7, 200' 5/16" G43 chain, adding a snubber plate with long climbing ropes in hurricane conditions.

Our anchors holding measurements are leaning to the conservative side so you should be ok with the 7, using all 5/16" chain will add the advantage of catenary which is very important, rope chaffing as a result from traveling on the seabed is something you should avoid, and finally, using a bridle plate with long elastic ropes will finalize your good night sleep, if you tend to sleep in heavy weather, I personally can't.

Look here for bridle explanations https://vikinganchors.com/data-cente...s-and-snubbers

I certainly appreciate his response because it shows where he places weight values, preferring all-chain and having reasonably high confidence about the Viking 7! The 200' of chain + the 11 lb anchor would load the bow about 211 lbs.

If I were to go with something like 80' of 5/16" HTY G43 Chain, simply because of conditions in our area and our use generally in shallower anchorages, the bow load would be about 91 lbs (chain 80lbs + anchor 11lbs) .

I would still use a bridle as he suggests, but would secure it to a stout SS eye welded to the bobstay waterline SS plate to increase effective scope and improve boat sailing where all the higher loads occur, using in high wind conditions a Sailrite Anchor Riding sail, (slightly different than the Banner Bay Fin Delta).

I understand his point about catenary, but as Peter Smith advises and shows in graphs, the chain straightens out in higher winds and the catenary is not effective. I think Iso values the chain mostly for the non-chafe aspect and the fact that the chain is continuous with no splice, which could be weaker.

The Viking Anchors must be pretty remarkable, going from a 22 lb Bruce to an 11 lb Viking seems like a big change. There appears to be high confidence about holding power.

In any case I really appreciated his suggestions because it has made me think about things in a different way.

• Viking 7 wt 5.2kg (11 lbs) 513 cm2
• Viking 10 9.5 kg (21 lbs) 743 cm2

Viking 10 is essentially the same weight as my Bruce 22 and it has 743/513 = 144% more fluke area than the Viking 7 and it is just 10 lbs more. I kind of like that Viking 10.

[rgleason]

I'd also like to note that the Viking website suggests it is better to not oversize anchors because the "Anchor Gods" which prevent the anchors from setting properly and diving deep, so perhaps that is a factor is Iso's suggestions for our boat. I am looking forward to some more testing of Viking 7,10 & 15 by s/v Panope.

Chain-Rope Connection:

In any case, regardless of how much chain (30'-80'), I will need 8-plait anchor rope and will need to connect chain to rope which is a critical connection. Since I will probably not get a manual windlass until I really need it (to reduce bow weight), the connection can be made a number of ways:

1. Thimble Eye splice with shackle to chain
2. 8-plait splice direct to chain.
3. 8-plait splice direct to chain with a sleeve abrasion cover.
4. Some other technique that provides better strength, redundancy and better abrasion resistance.

As a result of reading some recordings with instruments and load gauges on anchor rodes, which show that surges and sailing in high winds create the major loads on a boat at anchor (windage, waves and sail/surge are the major factors), I am intend to use 8-plait polyester.

Steve Dashew The Right Rode used polyester, same size as nylon & more scope. Another person used 5/8 in.[16mm] 12 plait polyester Samson Tenex; for high strength and outstanding abrasion resistance.

I also found this thread Polyester over Nylon Rode? "8 and 12 plait polyester lines make great rodes, really flexible, and a good balance of stretch and strength. As a extra bonus, they are really easy to splice."
Yale Polydyne was suggested, but now Yale has these Anchor ropes and and these 8-brait Polyester Ropes

1. Yale Optimus 12-strand 5/8" 11.7 lbs/100', 17100 min spliced break, 3,800 MWL (5:1) Climbing Rope
   1. single-braid 12-strand rope manufactured from a solution-dyed polyester and coated with our riggers-grade, abrasion-resistant coating to maximize protection.,,, optimal UV and weather resistance while maintaining its lightweight and flexible characteristics.
2. Yale Nylon 8 Brait 5/8" 9.4 lb/100', 10,980 lb Min spliced break, 2400 MWL (5:1) for comparison.

In the Polyester over Nylon? thread Unity Post #14 has a good public spreadsheet and analysis. His Unity Post #17 gets even better and more detailed. Quote "..A nice mix (of stretch) does come from the polyester over nylon" ... diameter of the line is substantially less for the polyester/nylon line... From this, it seems that polyester over nylon for a primary anchor makes sense." Later it seems there an wrong ABCY table was used.


So the questions are:
1. What 8-plait Polyester Rope should I use? Or should I just use Nylon?

2. Best way to connect to the 5/8" HT G43 Chain?

[mlydon]

I’ve heard that the bristols do sail a lot at anchor - my current boat does as well. I recommend you look at the fin-delta riding sail - it appears to have a lot of advantages over traditional riding sails, as you would make with a sailrite kit.

Personally, I’m planning on making my own this winter, as I have a bunch old sails hanging around for raw materials, but even buying new, they’re not bad, price wise.

Matt

[rgleason]

https://www.novabraid.com/rope/
https://www.novabraid.com/rope-types/mooring-line/


Novablue 5/8" 12.6 lb/100' 3220lbs MaxWL(5:1) 16,100 lb Tensile, Abrasion Resistant. Polyester double braid

Polytec-12 5/8" 13.1 lb/100' 3000lbs MaxWL(5:1) 15,100lbs Tensile Polyester 12 strand

Blendtec 5/8" 20.2lb/100' 2200 MaxWL(5:1) 11,000 lba tensile Polyester 12 strand


Nova-8 5/8" 9.1 lbs/100' 2,560 MWL 12,800 lbs tensile Nylon 8 astrand

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by mlydon

..I recommend you look at the fin-delta riding sail - it appears to have a lot of advantages over traditional riding sails, as you would make with a sailrite kit.

Personally, I’m planning on making my own this winter, as I have a bunch old sails hanging around for raw materials, but even buying new, they’re not bad, price wise.

Matt

I like your use old sails idea. I read the two links that I have down below from Sailrite and they seem to think the Finn-Delta design interferes with the cockpit somehow, so they provide an alternative.


I wonder if I can use the good parts of my 40yr old anchor line to make a "new" set of dock lines? Probably not, but I will find a use for it for sure.

[rslifkin]

Personally, I think the Viking 7 they suggest is far too small. They seem to love suggesting tiny anchors to make their stuff sound better than it is. They're good anchors, but the suggested sizing is just laughable. I'd consider the Viking 15 (12.6 kg / 27.7 lbs) to be the minimum size for a 32 footer. And personally, I'd want a bit bigger than that.

For a point of reference, Viking says the Viking 15 is sufficient for my boat (38 feet, 27k lbs). Mantus says I need a 55 or 65 lb depending on whether I look at the working or storm anchor column in their chart. Rocna says 55 lbs for either of their designs. And Spade says 55 lbs as well. All of those are double or more the size of the Viking recommendation and there's no way the Viking has double the holding power per weight. The anchor actually hanging on my bow is a 73 lb Rocna Vulcan, and I have never once felt it's too big.

The "too big is bad, it won't set properly" thing is total crap. Yes, there's a point where the anchor is too big and you won't have enough engine power to get a decent set, but by the time you get that big, it's probably also going to be so big that managing it on the bow will be a serious challenge. In the real world within the constraints of what will fit on the bow, a bigger anchor will always have more holding power.