Were classic cruisers built with short masts?

[model 10]

Somebody added 4' to our mast and kept the bowsprit. I added a Solent stay which goes from the mast head to the stem head, kind of like the boat you are looking at. Everything works great and the windvane can be very happy. But you need to reef way to soon when you are sailing into the wind to keep the vane happy and then boat speed really suffers.
I mention the windvane because on my last passage I noticed the boat sailing kind of funny. It would speed up and slow down just a little but kept going just fine. Finally I noticed that the windvane wasn't working at all and the boat was sailing itself. So maybe the extra 4' of mast can work.

[Sailorbob8599]

Originally Posted by SV Bacchus

If you really want to put the sprit back on maybe you should consider a folding sprit? Bacchus has one and it is the best of both worlds, sprit is there when you need it and cheaper marina bills when it is folded away.

Yes, a little more work to put it out and rig it up but the more times I do it the better and quicker I get.

Hey there Bacchus, I'm assuming that like me, you are on a 'finger' dock in an area of the marina where all finger docks are basically the same length, & you are saying the marina gives you a 'discount' because you have a folding bow-sprit? … consequently, would they charge you additional for the same dock if you did NOT fold your bow-sprit? Just curious.


My boat happens to be a 24 footer LOD having not only a bow-sprit, but also a boom-kin for an OAL of 30 feet, to accommodate a 30 foot sail plan. Both appendages are 'fixed' extensions eg: non-folding. My neighbour 2 boats over on the next finger dock of same length, owns a 35' boat … I'm pretty certain we both pay the same dock fees. My question: Is he getting a better deal than me, or am I getting screwed?

I believe we recently had such a discussion, where I posed the question: Why would a marina have different pricing for the same length finger dock? … it doesn't make sense.

[Sailorbob8599]

With regard to the thread discussion on mast length (or should that be height?) … how does a N/A determine how tall the stick should be?
Anytime I see a mast tied on top of a boat for storage or transportation, it almost always appears to be the same length as the boat itself … give or take a couple of feet.
eg: my Cutter rigged boat is 30' LOA (incl bowsprit & boom-kin) The spar is 30' … it rests nicely on both pulpit & stern rail. no overhangs when transported by road.

[Jim Cate]

Anytime I see a mast tied on top of a boat for storage or transportation, it almost always appears to be the same length as the boat itself … give or take a couple of feet.

Actually, that isn't such a common thing. Most modern boats (say post 1975) will have their mast length considerably longer than LOA. Example: my boat is ~46 feet LOA and the mast is about 70 feet long. My previous boat was 36 feet LOA and the mast was nearly 50 feet long. These were both keel stepped masts on performance oriented boats, but take the ubiquitous Catalina 30, where the LOA is 30 feet and the mast lenght is bout 40 feet (deck stepped). Most other current boats will echo this trend.

Your boat, I suspect, is a kinda anomaly, with a deck stepped mast and the hull length extended on both ends with extra spars. Nothing wrong with this design, but it isn't all that common these days.

Jim

[gjordan]

Unless I have missed it, you dont say what your intended use for this boat is. Many (not all) cruising designs do have less sail area/displacement but sail area is much easier to reduce than it is to add, so more sail area is not a bad thing. If your plans are to enjoy sailing socal then you might want to consider a lighter more maneuverable boat with a higher sail/displacement ratio. If you plan on crossing oceans, then what you are looking at is probably a decent choice(all boats are a compromise) and I would think about re-doing the bow sprit. If long distance is in your plans and there is question about the 3 extra foot of mast, I (my opinion) would just have a third reef sewn into the main, or if the main needs replacing, have the new one with 2 deeper than normal reefs. Again, what is your intended use? ____Grant.

[Cheechako]

many boats were built with optional; tall rigs... including Catalina's etc. So I wouldn't rule it out at all.
As mentioned, without the 'sprit it may have more weather helm. But it's a proven design so with the 'sprit back on, and just a touch more main, I doubt it will be a problem.
Boat balance predictions are only a "snap shot in time" anyway. (ie: as soon as you reef or add a genoa it changes) Maybe they converted to a sloop which changes the balance prediction from the cutter anyway.

[bemao]

Thanks again for all of your thoughts!

We plan to sail around SoCal for a least a few years, but our ultimate intention is to take the boat offshore.

This may be a silly question, given the relative weights involved, but would you expect there to be any forward-aft balance issues with the bowsprit removed? The sprit was maybe 5 feet of solid wood, so removing it takes a considerable amount of weight off of the bow.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by bemao

This may be a silly question, given the relative weights involved, but would you expect there to be any forward-aft balance issues with the bowsprit removed? The sprit was maybe 5 feet of solid wood, so removing it takes a considerable amount of weight off of the bow.

That isn't a silly question at all. The only silly part is asking random people over the net and believing their answers. This is another excellent question to direct at Robert Perry.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by bemao

Thanks again for all of your thoughts!

We plan to sail around SoCal for a least a few years, but our ultimate intention is to take the boat offshore.

This may be a silly question, given the relative weights involved, but would you expect there to be any forward-aft balance issues with the bowsprit removed? The sprit was maybe 5 feet of solid wood, so removing it takes a considerable amount of weight off of the bow.

It will be obvious if it does have much effect by observing the boat waterline in the water. But, if you put 200 ft of chain in the bow it will have a lot more effect than with or without the bowsprit. :>) The extra 4 ft of mast may not be bad at all on a Baba.... it takes some wind to get them moving. My friend had one for a few years.
If you put a 'sprit back on it, you could use Spruce or another wood and save a bunch of weight over the teak Ta Shing used. If it was a 30 I'd say forget the cutter and sail it as a sloop.

[TrentePieds]

Here is how you calculate the weight of the sprit:

Assume a square cross section of 4 x 4 inches = 1/3 x 1/3 Foot = 1/9 SqFt. Assume total length of sprit to be 5 foot overhang + 4 feet on deck = 9 feet. Total volume of sprit = 9 x 1/9 = 1 CuFt. Weight of oak (or teak) = 42 lbs per CuFt, thus weight of "naked" sprit = 42 lbs. Double weight to account for fittings like the cranse iron. Thus total weight of sprit and gear = about 80 or 90 lbs.

In terms of how a Baba floats on her lines, that will make no perceptible difference.

The numbers I've used are close to the mark. The principle of the calculation is correct, so you can play with the numbers on the basis of accurate measurements. For instance, if the cross section is really 6 x 6 inches, your cross sectional area is 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 SqFt and the weight of the naked sprit would be 9/4 * 42lbs = 94.5 lbs.

TP

[Dooglas]

Okay, I'll accept that the bowsprit weighed about a hundred pounds - and was placed several feet in front of the bow. I'll also comment that 200 pounds of anchor chain weighs something like 300 pounds and is placed several feet aft of the bow, and several feet lower. I'd also suspect that the designer of the boat anticipated the use of a chain rode on a 35' cruising sailboat. So, how do each of these affect the boat. The answer to that question requires more than the answers offered up.

[TrentePieds]

Hi Dooglas :-)

Some of this stuff is sort of intuitive rather than in need of quantified proof :-) I'm just a liggle fellow at 180 lbs, or twice the weight of the sprit we are talking about. I'm having good ol' snooze in the V-berth, and I'm beginning to feel a tad green. I go to the cockpit to have a little chat with Ralph. How d'ye s'pose that will affect the trim of a Baba? I could actually calculate it for you with a whole bunch numbers. But why bother? You KNOW (from experience) that the change of trim will be so negligible that the helmsman won't even be aware of it :-)

Someone else has already pointed out that what is important in this discussion is where the ACTUAL Centre of Effort (as distinct from the DESIGNED CofE) is located in relation to the Centre of Lateral Plane. Same person pointed out that that's a bit of guesswork because it will change with what headsails you wear and how deep you reef the main.

Only way to get a feel for these things is to take the old girl out for a turn or two around the dance floor :-).

TP

[Don C L]

I still can't get over someone would remove a sprit and get a new mast, rigging and new sails to save on slip fees. Does he still have the original mast, and sails? Personally I wouldn't buy the boat without having a good discussion with Perry about it first. If you do, get back to us and let us know what he says, I'm really curious.

[Cheechako]

Here's an exceptionally nice Baba 35 for $99k turnkey and ready. Seems like a lot of boat to me. It's a beauty and seems to have everything. 35' Baba Cutter Yacht For Sale - Rubicon Yachts

[Cheechako]

The 'sprit and related items on those boats is a lot more than a 4 x 4 piece of wood. Heavy pulpit, 3 pieces of heavy SS rigging and turnbuckles, the 'sprit on deck is more like 6 x 6 IIRC, Heavy teak platform too.
But in reality, the boat's designed for it.
No, the anchor chain isn't "several feet aft". Maybe 2 ft.