Downwind Sail for Ocean Race

[Dockhead]

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I really want to reduce the spaghetti and I'm not worried about gybing. This is a nearly 1000 mile race. I think we could very well gybe just by dousing the chute and starting all over again -- the ultimate chicken gybe.

Yes that's an option to keep things simpler. I agree, it's not a round the buoys race.

However, we seem to have picked up a new line -- downhaul for the pole? Wouldn't the tack line do that?

A conventional symmetrical setup use a 'downhaul' for the spinnaker pole to stop the sail and the pole skying. And also to help 'dip' the pole through the foretriangle during a gybe.

As I mentioned, yes, with an asymmetric the tackline will also do this and you may not need anything else. If you do, just a lightweight line to a foredeck cleat will be ok (it wont be under load), to stop the pole moving around when the tackline is not there.

As a different example, think about wing on wing with a headsail when cruising. I totally lock the pole in place using a separate guy, topping lift, and downhaul. Then the headsail sheet can be used separately to furl and unfurl. In changeable conditions, sometimes I furl the headsail or more often take it back to the leeward side, but leave the pole up in place to save work, if it might be used again later.

You don't need that possibility with the asymmetric though.

So how is the pole end attached? The tackline runs through the outer jaws?

Yes that's right.

And the guy can be either attached to the tackline, or to the pole itself.
There are actually a few variants there. Eg: the guy can go through the pole, and attach to the tackline instead. Or you can even have a strop setup in the jaws and attach the guy and tackline to that.

Because chafe is your enemy here.
Normally guys have chafe protection at the outboard end behind the shackle, where the line sits in the jaws.
Also the guys often had a plastic disk on them too, this was to prevent the shackle getting winched into the jaws and jamming.

This is all a bit setup dependant and the variances are small details. Each variant will still 'work'.

The guy would run from the windward side of the pole, right? So this would balance sheet tension to stabilize the tack and pole in the horizontal plane, right?

Yes that's right.


I forgot that I will have preventers rigged if we are running deep. Damn. Now I'm short a winch. I run preventers to a secondary winch on the leeward side. I could possibly run through a cam cleat to free up the winch for a guy, but do I need a guy only on the windward side?

You only need the guy on the windward side.

Answers above in red.

[jmh2002]

PS: Another thing that I thought of.

You may also need a barber hauler and low friction ring somewhere around midships, depending on where you will lead the sheet to? From your deck layout drawing - will it be the runner block attachment points, or?

This will enable you to both to adjust the sheeting angle for different points of sail, as well as stop the sheet chafing on the boom, which it will probably like to do.

Or you might just say to hell with all this spaghetti and simply attach the sheet block further forward to prevent this chafe in the first place.

[home_maarten]

Hi....


If you need to go downwind fast, especially in light winds, a spinaker is fastest. Genaker is more for broad reaches, and code zero even higher, beam reach to upwind.


Secret of going dead downwind in light winds is not going dead downwind: the lighter the wind, the higher you need to go to make apparent wind work for you - just check the polar plots to see what the best vmg would be.


Also much more comfortable the going realy dead downwind .

[jmh2002]

Agreed in principle.

But if I understand correctly @Dockhead is trying to buy a second hand sail which can be used for this 'race'...

(We have unexpectedly qualified for a long distance race this summer... Even if we don't care that much about the results, we sure as hell care about not bobbing around out there and not arriving... Downwind sailing is likely considering the 900 mile route.)

...and then also used for various different cruising activities thereafter (if the sail proves successful I suppose).

Hence the preference for an Asymmetric, so that it can be flown from the bow without a pole too (but hence also my suggestion of possibly using the pole at times, to widen the Asymmetric's range a bit for deeper running)

So we are trying to fudge a solution that does a bit of everything, combined with the existing gear onboard too.

[Happ]

If you are only going to get 1 sail i would recommend a Code 0. in light wind at 40d AWA you can get close to wind speed. The heavier the wind the deeper down wind you can sail. Say in 35 to 40kts you can sail as low as 160d to 170d. Code 0’s are the most versatile sail you can buy. To make life easy put in on a Top Down Furler. When you don’t want it just furl it up. Lower it on deck when you wont be using it for awhile. Simple and very effective.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Happ

If you are only going to get 1 sail i would recommend a Code 0. in light wind at 40d AWA you can get close to wind speed. The heavier the wind the deeper down wind you can sail. Say in 35 to 40kts you can sail as low as 160d to 170d. Code 0’s are the most versatile sail you can buy.

Have you read the thread? Or even my above post?

Much as I like Code Zeros, how will that help in a 900nm light air downwind race or passage that this thread is specifically related to?

Aside from that, I have doubts that the average cruiser will be flying the same large sail area Code Zero that they use for ghosting along in 8-10kn of wind when they are on a passage and it's blowing 40kn...

North Sails

[Happ]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Have you read the thread? Or even my above post?

How will that help in a 900nm light air downwind race or passage that this thread is specifically related to?

Aside from that, I have doubts that the average cruiser will be flying the same large sail area Code Zero that they use for ghosting along in 8-10kn of wind when they are on a passage and it's blowing 40kn...

The Code 0 gives you versatility. I doubt you will be going 7-8 days In 5-10 kts at 120d awa. If you did find yourself going farther aft then 120d awa then you can pole out the sail.

If you want to plan for 5-8 kts at day 120 to 150d awa then a asymmetrical will work fine. If it was me knowing light wind is always light and variable I would want the most options possible. With only One sail I would want the most flexible option. Just my thoughts.

[jmh2002]

I'm a Code Zero fan, but I'm not sure if it will provide the required horsepower in this instance.

Dockhead did specify "downwind in light air", but perhaps he needs to clarify that a bit more exactly.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

We have unexpectedly qualified for a long distance race this summer. It's not all that serious and we will not put on a mighty struggle to improve our position, but use of the engine is totally forbidden, which spoils my usual light wind downwind tactic of motorsailing. Even if we don't care that much about the results, we sure as hell care about not bobbing around out there and not arriving. Downwind sailing is likely considering the 900 mile route.

So I think I'm going to need to add a downwind sail of some kind, something which is not presently in my sail inventory (I have carbon laminate mainsail, carb lam blade jib, and carb lam 120% yankee, plus a Dacron staysail/storm sail on an inner forestay).

I have a carbon pole off a TP52 but I don't have and don't intend to add a bowsprit.

What are my options?

I guess the obvious candidate is a regular symmetrical spinnaker. Probably pick up a used one cheap somewhere.

But should I consider something else?

I don't have much time to deal with this. All advice appreciated.

Dockhead, I'd recommend an asymmetrical spinnaker. It will be easy to set, fly and douse and requires less gear, but make it big, not a teensie cruising chute favored by cruisers. Ocean racing, make sure it is at least 1.0oz cloth, 1.2 would be better for a heavy boat in waves.

With the shape of your bow (significant overhang) you have no need for a spirit, your boat itself will project that sail out for reaching.

Since you have a nice carbon pole you can use it to pull back the tack of the asymmetrical for deep running.

1. Attach the tack of the asymmetrical via a tack line which leads to the cockpit (not directly to a tack fitting on the bow). You must be able to let this out or pull it in.
2. Clip an after guy to the tack of the kite
3. Put the pole on the mast and put the afterguy in the jaw (a pole lift will be helpful at this point or use a spare halyard)
4. While easing the tack line pull back on the after guy until the sail is flying like a symmetrical kite with the pole back as far as needed.
5. To jibe you must ease the after guy and pull in the tack line until the tack of the sail is on the centerline down close to the tack fitting on the bow.

You definitely do not need a code zero, which many folks will recommend since they are the rage right now. With your moderately large yankee you can reach well or point high. The code zero is more important if you can't set any kind of genoa.

Remember that reaching up will improve your VMG. (Polars!) Jibing downwind is the fastest way to get downwind and avoid sailing dead downwind unless the wind is over, say, 15 knots, and then pull the tack back as described above.

Read or watch videos on how to jibe an asymmetrical, done right is it easy.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I'm a Code Zero fan, but I'm not sure if it will provide the required horsepower in this instance.

Dockhead did specify "downwind in light air", but perhaps he needs to clarify that a bit more exactly.

I had always planned to acquire a Code 0, or cruising Code 0 which I believe is cut a bit differently, as my next sail, for all around light air use. That is because downwind in light air I just motorsail when cruising, so no need to overthing that.


But this is a race! So I need horsepower exactly where my existing sailplan is weakest -- whenever the wind is well behind the beam. I think the assy spinnaker is the right sail for this particular job. Especially if by using the pole (which I now understand how to use, duh! ) I can sail a bit higher with it if necessary.


I have made an offer now on a 200m2 North Sails A2, with 70' luff. Seems about right. Will be slightly short since my forestay is 72' but that will give some margin for the snuffer.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So it's only good from 150 true to 90 apparent? That's an awfully narrow range, isn't it?

The symmetrical kite will certainly do it (I have both) but with the technique I described above you can do it all with a assym, from 80 degrees true to 180, (if you jibe downwind).

Either way, don't be afraid to heat it up in the light stuff (Polars)

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So another sail I found is a cruising chute, luff length 66.5 feet/20.27 meters, 1 oz nylon, 140 square meters.



My rig is I:68.67', J:19.42' forestay approximately 71.36'


My pole is 8.5 meters long so about 27'; I think about cutting it down to a little over my J dimension.

This sail will be small for you. And compare the luff lengths, some cruising chutes have a leech which is much shorter than the luff, further reducing the area. Look for 85% ratio to get the areas you need for light downwind stuff.

Yes, the pole is too long, your idea is good, and remember it must swing under the forestay! (with the butt end raised high the J length is about right to swing through, but a little longer is good for the spinnaker effectiveness)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The symmetrical kite will certainly do it (I have both) but with the technique I described above you can do it all with a assym, from 80 degrees true to 180, (if you jibe downwind).

Either way, don't be afraid to heat it up in the light stuff (Polars)

Thanks!


I will be very happy if I can do 80 to 160 true. I was always taught that you don't want to feel the wind coming over the transom. Apparent wind works FOR you, sailing downwind, rather than against you. So I don't think I would do much sailing at right DDW unless it was really too light wind to get enough speed to generate much apparent wind. I think if I can get speed up and then fall off gradually to keep the apparent wind working, I could sail very efficient VMG downwind.


The assy does sound like the ticket

[jmh2002]

@Dockhead, you will note that wingsail also described what I suggested earlier too.

With an asymmetric and a pole, you have a lot of options.

@wingsail, this discussion is kind of spread over two threads, here is the other one where I recently posted a lot of technical data which you might like to comment on: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...65#post3156765