Downwind Sail for Ocean Race

[Dockhead]

So another sail I found is a cruising chute, luff length 66.5 feet/20.27 meters, 1 oz nylon, 140 square meters.



My rig is I:68.67', J:19.42' forestay approximately 71.36'


My pole is 8.5 meters long so about 27'; I think about cutting it down to a little over my J dimension.

[Dockhead]

Then there's the Parasailor. Apparently much easier to use than a symmetrical yet usable DDW and up to a reach.


No way to get a Parasailor made in time for this, and it's rather outside of my budget, but there is a German analogue:


https://tuchwerkstatt.de/shop/oxley-...spinnaker.html


What do you guys think? Is anyone using a Parasailor or similar for racing?

[FabioC]

Since you have a pole but no bowsprit, the simplest answer is to get a used S2 (S stands for Spinnaker, 2 is an even number, so it denotes a spinnaker cut for downwind).
If you have a local mailing list or classified where people sell stuff, start from there, or ask the local marinas, in our marina we have something like that.

[Cpt Pat]

I suggest twin jibs. It's a solution that's commonly been used in the single-handed transpac race.

[Breaking Waves]

Personally I would get an A2 with a sock.

That would be easy to fly and versatile.

An S2 is an option, especially if your boat is slow (relative to modern race boats) downwind. It will be more work to fly, but if your crew know what they are doing is no problem.

You don't want to ever be going deeper than about 140 in lightish air - deeper is just slower.

1500 sq ft is not huge. That is very manageable size. I would not be put off by 2000 sq ft with a boat your size and 5 crew.

[guyrj33]

We have both an asymmetric and symmetric spinnaker for out 33' Pearson 10M.
I find the symmetric easier to sail and it will pull over a larger angle then the asymmetric.
When the asymmetric is happy it's a very nice sail, but overall it's crankier than the symmetric spinnaker.

[thunderhoof]

I suggest a light asymmetrical downwind sail flown with the spinnaker pole at the tack. We run it with a tackline through a block at the jib tack. We have no bowsprit. The sail measures in as a spinnaker but actually has a larger area because of the asym design. Deep downwind we bring the pole up and back and use the pole foreguy. Closer to the wind we haul in on the tack line with the pole low on centerline. Jibes are simple as long as the tackline block is on the forward side of the headstay -pole off, tackline in, turn DDW, throw the old sheet completely off and have several hands bring in the new sheet as quickly as possible. the pole is set once we are moving well on the new course.
Since we hardly ever sail DDW for long periods (Its slow and uncomfortable) we rarely use our symmetrical chute.

[gwy]

Sounds like you have the gear for a regular chute so use it with one addition that will make it easy on you and the crew - get a sock.

Use the symmetrical spinnaker and if you don't have one, used chutes are fairly common and on the lower cost side. Also do get a snuffer or "sock"; yes when you hoist it the head of the chute is crumpled a litte and that will not impact you much at all. Having the sock makes jibing really slick because as you slowly head down, ease the spin sheet, pull the sock down, complete the gybe by switching the pole, then pop the sock and off you go. It makes it really easy when you use a triple block (you can rig it off the stem fitting or the foredeck cleat) and run the snuffer lines to the cockpit. Setting up this arrangement makes it safe for one person to be topside while the chute is up and gybing is a one person job.

I've done multiple passages with this set up and it works well, unless you want to add an on deck retractable sprit and run an asymmetrical!

Most of all Enjoy the ride!

gwy

[ka4wja]

Dockhead my friend,
I have some advice, real-world use experience (offshore), and some data for you...
Oh, and I also have a video! (not to worry, all pertinent info on the asym is in the first 1 to 2 minutes....so, you don't have to watch the whole 12.5 minutes!)

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't care about the rating, but storage starts to be an issue with multiple massive sails. I'm already carrying two jibs. This boat doesn't have a sail locker.


I found a lightly used triradial symmetrical spinnaker with luff length almost the same as my "I" dimension -- 69' or 21 meters. 1738 square feet or 161m2. 1.5oz nylon. That's a massive sail. I kind of shudder to think about handling it.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So another sail I found is a cruising chute, luff length 66.5 feet/20.27 meters, 1 oz nylon, 140 square meters.

My rig is I:68.67', J:19.42' forestay approximately 71.36'

My pole is 8.5 meters long so about 27'; I think about cutting it down to a little over my J dimension.

1) Since you're looking for a quick solution...first the quick advice:

a) find a big asym (what I assume you're calling a cruising chute).
{I have a big asym (~ 1435 sq ft), but it is 1.5 oz nylon....my 47' / ~ 28,000lb boat is smaller than yours...with I = 58.25' J = 17'}

b) 140 sq m = ~ 1506 sq. ft., and this is a good size for you...maybe even a bit small....but like me, you're not a racer, and I bought mine second-hand (unused).

c) 1oz nylon on a sail that size might be okay? But, offshore on a boat your size and a sail that size, I'd want 1.5 oz nylon...

d) Storage is a big bag isn't too much of an issue....'cuz my whole 1450 sq ft asym AND the ATN sock, AND the two 100' sheets, all fit easily in one nice big "turtle" bag....and if I place it between my helm seats, it makes a nice "bean bag chair"....or sometimes I just throw it on the floor of the aft cabin, or in one of my shower stalls....(if my lazarette hatches were bigger, I'd stow it there)

Have a look (the black bag sitting on the deck, between my dinghy and lifelines is the whole 1450 sq ft asym, and the ATN sock):





2) As for real-world asym use offshore...
I've used mine from approx 45* app wind all the way around to 170* app wind angles....and while no question that will fly DDW if I pole it out (like poling-out a genoa) I don't have a pole that long...

Now, as to what angles it works best at: 50* app wind to about 160* app wind angles....
And, app wind speeds of up to 20 kts....
I've flown it with winds of 2kts (yes 2 kts), and as long as the sea is calm it stays pretty full, but once winds are 3kts and up, you're pretty good-to-go...all-the-way to 20kts or so...

I did fly it once when winds picked up to 25 kts, and it was a bitch wrangling it....but, just like reefing, once you think about it, you already should have!


Oh, and some quick personal stats....on two Atlantic crossings:
---- With app wind of 10 - 11 kts (gusts to 12), at 45* to 50" app wind angle...[this equals True wind speeds of 7kts to 8.5kts, at 91* to 98* off-the-bow True], boat speed is 7.5kts to 8.1kts..

---- I flew the darn thing more than I thought I would...
Eastbound from S. Florida to Gibraltar ~ 16% - 17% of the time
Westbound from Gibraltar to St. Thomas, USVI ~ 17% - 18% of the time




3) As for some video:
Watch the first 2 minutes of this first video....and you'll see my app wind speeds (approx 11 kts) and app wind angle (approx. 50*), and boat speeds (7.5kts to 8kts)....and also see the asym flying, at these wind speeds/angles (a couple hundred miles SW of Gibraltar, enroute to Canaries)
{btw, you can watch the whole 12 minute video if you like, 'cuz the latter part is when Tropical Storm Olga formed behind me, and then overtook me (sorry don't have the worst of it, just when I had time and the sea was a bit calmer)....}

Hope this helps.

fair winds.

John

[ka4wja]

Dockhead,
If you look at this second video, at least the first few minutes of this next video, you'll see the asym and sock, in its bag, sitting between my helm seats....and then see it flying in very light air (about 400 west of Azores) at 8m 40sec to about 9m 40secs...


Oh, and as for a "sock"?
I found the ATN to be the best out there!
But...
But, now that "roll-o-gen" systems are damned well perfected, if I was spending the $$$ now, I'd go for a big asym on a rollogen continuous furler...

[GILow]

I’ve had pretty good results running direct down wind with my old Asym poled out. Haven’t tried it with the new one yet, so I don’t know if I was just lucky with original Asym shape or if the pole is the solution.

[ka4wja]

Dockhead,
Not sure what your masthead rigging looks like....but please make sure you have a spinnaker halyard and that it is rigged as a spinnaker halyard...

What I mean is: make sure it is rigged out front of your forestay.
(I know this is sorta' a "duh" comment, but I see quite a few trying to fly a spinnaker, asym or full chute, from a genoa halyard...)

I had a custom masthead plate (3/8" to 1/2" thick, 316 SS) made and rigged to work seamlessly as a great spin halyard...

Please have a look at these dozen pics:
Masthead Rigging
(click on each one, for larger / hi-res photos)
Fyi, I did add some cable ties on those block shackles/pins, after I took the photos...)


Here are a couple samples:








Fair winds.

John

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Dockhead,
Not sure what your masthead rigging looks like....but please make sure you have a spinnaker halyard and that it is rigged as a spinnaker halyard...

What I mean is: make sure it is rigged out front of your forestay.
(I know this is sorta' a "duh" comment, but I see quite a few trying to fly a spinnaker, asym or full chute, from a genoa halyard...)
. . .

Yes, thanks John, it's an important reminder.


I have two halyards running to blocks on a masthead truck crane, well forward of the forestay, which anyway meets the mast about a meter below the masthead truck.


It's a Selden mast; all those details well taken care of.


What I don't have is a bowsprit.

[ka4wja]

1) Don't sweat not having a bow sprit.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What I don't have is a bowsprit.

If you were sailing really deep downwind, and your main was blanketing the asym too much, a bow sprit can be of some use (or at least that's what I was told).

But, in most cases, with an asym/cruising chute, no need for a bow sprit.



2) And, to be clear my advice for an asym/cruising chute (whether in a ATN sock, or on a roll-o-gen continuous furler) is mainly because you will use it!
Nothing like spending money on something you never use....well, a liferaft, EPIRB, etc., yep, they're okay to spend $$$$ on and never use...but a sail?
Nah, I'd not do that...

So, I recommend a sail that you will actually use....whether in this summer's adventure or otherwise...


fair winds.

John

P.S. And, you all thought all I ever did was comment on radios!

[Chuck Hawley]

You may want to contact US Sailing and find out if your boat class has a ORR rating, and whether they can give you the speed increase that you'd expect with different downwind sails. While they charge for this, it's pretty reasonable since someone else paid for the hull and rig measurements. The Offshore Racing Association and Offshore Racing Council probably offer similar services. Some boats (Cal 40s) work best with classic tri-radial symmetrical sails, while others (J-125) will use asymmetrical sails based on their polars. I suspect you know this, but knowing your sail choices vs. rating penalty would be nice.

Chuck