Downwind Sail for Ocean Race

[Dockhead]

OK, so I got discouraged about the U.S. EBay one, imagining the seams blowing out. Also the shipping is pretty horrendous, and then I have to mess with customs.


Now I've found, at a very good price, an unused North Sails M-H (medium-heavy) A2 off a Swan 45, for a very good price. Luff length is 18.8 meters, which is 2 or 3 meters short (my forestay is 21.75 meters long), area is 120m2.


So it's quite small for light wind, but would be usable up to a pretty high wind range. Would be easier to handle and should be fairly easy to rig since it won't come down to the bow pulpit. It will be easier to handle cruising short handed.

What do you guys think, will this suck? We are 20 tonnes light ship and probably 23-24 tonnes loaded. My foretriangle is 62m2 so my 120% yankee is probably 68m2 or so. So this sail will still be nearly twice the area of the poled-out yankee.

What do you think?

[jmh2002]

A side note, which may not go down well here on CF (especially when some people are already freaking out over this being such a 'big' sail), is that if you know what you are doing, ie: how to hoist and douse a chute properly, and especially if you have enough crew onboard (but not essential with the right techniques) then you don't need a sock at all.

In fact the socks can be more trouble than they are worth sometimes.

If you going to be using this sail in light air, mostly dead down wind, then it's even easier (we are not talking about surfing at 20kn in 35kn of wind in a big sea).

But of course you do need some knowledge of the racing techniques to do this. (simple example: pole forward to the forestay, blow the guy, trim the sheet, ease the halyard, and lower behind the mainsail)

After that, it can be pretty easy, even with these 'big' sails.

[FabioC]

Not ideal, luff is quite short for your boat, but will certainly make a big difference nevertheless. If you do not find anything better, go for it.
When you rig it, use a block at the tack point, you'll have to fiddle with the tack line to get it fly acceptably.

[FabioC]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

A side note, which may not go down well here on CF (especially when everyone is already freaking out over this being such a 'big' sail), is that if you know what you are doing, ie: how to hoist and douse a chute properly, and especially if you have enough crew onboard (but not essential with the right techniques) then you don't need a sock at all.

In fact the socks can be more trouble than they are worth sometimes.

I agree that socks can be more trouble than they are worth it sometimes. In fact, when I got a large asymmetric with a sock, for a while my wife and I used it without the sock. The reason for that was that the sock in some boats makes jibing the asymmetric more difficult.

However, I have since changed my mind and I think the sock is more than worth it if you are shorthanded, as it makes hoisting and especially taking down the spinnaker a much more controlled operation (especially take downs without a crew in windy conditions, the chance of dropping the spinnaker in the water is quite high, no matter the level of experience, plus it can be nerve-wracking having a person on leeward fighting with such a large sail). In our boat, without the sock, the technique of calmly taking down the spinnaker from the companionway with the sail between the boom and the mainsail does not work, since the foot of the mainsail is railed on the boom.

It turns out that the increased difficulty in jibing the sail with the sock is, like anything, simply a matter of rigging for outside jibes and learning how to do it.

Once that is mastered, I think the sock is a must when shorthanded or when the crew is inexperienced or when it blows above 15-20.

[jmh2002]

I don't especially disagree with your comments, they are all relevant points.

If going for the best option then these days I would prefer to have my sails on top down single line furlers, and still avoid the use of socks as much as possible.

But in @dockheads case, if I understood correctly, the sail will initially be used on a downwind passage, in light air, and with 5 or more crew onboard.

And I detect some desire to boost performance in these conditions, but not spend too much money (at least not yet). Perhaps it will be somewhat of a test, and a purpose built configuration might come later if the outcome is successful.

I guess my point was, "a sock isn't essential in light air, especially with enough crew".

[sailah]

My personal opinion is that the sail is too small if the luff is 2-3 m short. But if the price is right...I'm a sucker for a deal.

Light wind is exactly when I want the sail working well.

If it were my boat and my money, I'd buy the cheapest thing that resembles an asymmetric and run it. After 1000 mile race, you'll know what you like and don't like and can go find a nice one that fits your boat. Especially if you've never had one on your boat before. And you won't cry if you blow it out. I've had more spinnaker oopsies from snagging things and poor handling than high winds and that has nothing to do with how new/expensive it is.

Agree about the sock too. I use mine when shorthanded and it's a must. When I race, I remove the sock and fly it without. My crew is good enough to retrieve it safely behind one of the other sails. Plus it takes away from my hoist height and I want it as high as possible. I have a pulpit to deal with but my sprit helps where you don't have that.

Either way, any downwind sail is better than not having one. They don't weigh alot so get your hands on whatever you think is best option and run it. Most of the other supporting equipment like sheets, tack line block, trigger shackles can be reused.

[jmh2002]

Also for @dockhead, the ability to fly the sail from your (fully lowered) spinnaker pole can really enhance the useful range of the sail.

So a question: What setup do you have on the inboard end of the spinnaker pole? Do you have an adjustable track on the mast? Can you lower the pole to a horizontal position just above the lifelines / pulpit height?

Also on the subject of shackles (and this can be subjective - but back in the day I was a professional sailor, race boat captain, bowman, etc), I would recommend a trigger release type of shackle, not the pin release type common on cruising boats.

Here is an example: https://www.tylaska.com/product-cate...ease-shackles/

And you should have a couple of shackle fids (spikes) for these too.
https://www.tylaska.com/product/knurled-fids/
(you can even get a remote release version these days)

In light air none of this should be necessary of course (and in really light air we would just bowline the sheets because the shackles are heavy and affect the sail shape), but if something goes wrong, a squall comes through, or whatever, it's a nice safety feature to be able to spike the shackle under load and release the sail (spike the guy, not the sheet).

[sailah]

1 other sock comment, for some reason they are stupidly expensive for what they are. I bought mine with my J105 spin as the seller wanted to move both.

You don't need the exact right length for it to work if you find a deal on one. Mine doesn't go ALL the way down, maybe 85%. You're just looking to get most of the wind out of the spinnaker so it doesn't have any power. Anything close enough will work fine. The only thing you might need to adjust are the length of the snuffing lines.

[jmh2002]

@sailah made some good relevant points too

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What do you think?

In my opinion the luff of the sail is much too short to make it work properly. The luff length should be a little longer than your forestay length. If the luff is shorter, you will either have a long tack line or a long halyard, probably both. Not easy to get the sail to fly stable. Ideally the head should be almost pinned and the tack have just a little adjusting margin.

I have a too short assym that came with the boat, and it is not working good. Needs a lot of attention. More than a regular spi. But, yes, it helps performance in light winds.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailah

1 other sock comment, for some reason they are stupidly expensive for what they are. I bought mine with my J105 spin as the seller wanted to move both.

You don't need the exact right length for it to work if you find a deal on one. Mine doesn't go ALL the way down, maybe 85%. You're just looking to get most of the wind out of the spinnaker so it doesn't have any power. Anything close enough will work fine. The only thing you might need to adjust are the length of the snuffing lines.

Extremely relevant and useful; thanks! I did find a used sock for £300, which is a few meters short.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MartinR

In my opinion the luff of the sail is much too short to make it work properly. The luff length should be a little longer than your forestay length. If the luff is shorter, you will either have a long tack line or a long halyard, probably both. Not easy to get the sail to fly stable. Ideally the head should be almost pinned and the tack have just a little adjusting margin.

I have a too short assym that came with the boat, and it is not working good. Needs a lot of attention. More than a regular spi. But, yes, it helps performance in light winds.

Also really useful, thanks.

[FabioC]

Originally Posted by sailah

1 other sock comment, for some reason they are stupidly expensive for what they are.

+1
I guess it is a specialty niche market with only a couple of vendors monopolizing it. Probably the overall volume is quite low, so you cannot expect too good a price.

[GILow]

I have no problem with the smaller sail.

As I mentioned earlier, I deliberately bought one two sizes smaller to give myself a greater wind range.

If I were racing I know this would be unacceptable, but I am not and I never will.

In this case the sail is needed for one race after which it will become part of a cruising wardrobe, where versatility is more important than performance. (For most of us)

I have not noticed stability issues with the longer halyard and tack, but I tend to use the sail in benign conditions, as i assume most cruisers would do.

As for the sock, I cannot imagine handling the sail without one. It makes it so easy to deploy and retrieve

[slug]

Originally Posted by GILow

I have no problem with the smaller sail.

As I mentioned earlier, I deliberately bought one two sizes smaller to give myself a greater wind range.

If I were racing I know this would be unacceptable, but I am not and I never will.

In this case the sail is needed for one race after which it will become part of a cruising wardrobe, where versatility is more important than performance. (For most of us)

I have not noticed stability issues with the longer halyard and tack, but I tend to use the sail in benign conditions, as i assume most cruisers would do.

As for the sock, I cannot imagine handling the sail without one. It makes it so easy to deploy and retrieve

An asymmetric must be fully hoisted, to blocked ... for stability and to reduce halyard chafe

The tack can be high if you use a tack headstay strop to keep the sail on centerline and stabilize the asymmetric

The combination makes a good set for a cruiser with a cluttered stem head

An asymmetric that is short on luff length also has the advantage of being flown off the spi pole

In conditions were you must sail deep it’s a decent combination