Ball park figure for running rigging

[Jim Cate]

So, Matt, what happened? Is it a winner? And where were you at 2140 yesterday?

Jim

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Avoid Spectra. One time I installed Spectra for running backstay tails to the winch (using wire above it to the mast). Big mistake, in a couple years the outer layer shredded off. This was before we sailed south, and I guess it can't handle the sun in San Francisco. But Dyneema is incredible - I've had the same 6mm Dyneema lines in use for my dinghy's aft lifting bridle, for at least 5 years, in the tropics, and it shows no deterioration.

...

Ummm, Spectra and Dyneema are made from the same material - UHMWPE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene) - they are simply registered brand names. Spectra was developed by Honeywell Corporation in the US, while Dyneema was developed by DSM in the Netherlands. There are now lots of other makers of UHMWPE rope. Depending on their exact manufacturing process different UHMWPE lines have slightly different characteristics (such as stretch and creep, UV protection, abrasion resistance, etc), but they’re all made from the same material.

Rope manufactures use the various UHMWPE lines as core materials and are over-braided with polyester (usually) covers to create a rope. That combination of core plus cover is where the different handling characteristics and performance come from.

Your poor experience with that particular Spectra rope wasn’t the fault of the Spectra core, it was with the finished rope that had a polyester cover of some sort that didn’t stand up to UV and wear.

UHMWPE on its own has reasonable UV resistance, but coating of the entire line or of individual fibres during the manufacturing process can increase that. UV-protected line is more expensive, so is often not used for ropes that will be covered. Check that when buying UHMWPE core rope that you plan to strip the cover off of.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Ummm, Spectra and Dyneema are made from the same material - UHMWPE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene) - they are simply registered brand names. Spectra was developed by Honeywell Corporation in the US, while Dyneema was developed by DSM in the Netherlands. There are now lots of other makers of UHMWPE rope. Depending on their exact manufacturing process different UHMWPE lines have slightly different characteristics (such as stretch and creep, UV protection, abrasion resistance, etc), but they’re all made from the same material.

Rope manufactures use the various UHMWPE lines as core materials and are over-braided with polyester (usually) covers to create a rope. That combination of core plus cover is where the different handling characteristics and performance come from.

Your poor experience with that particular Spectra rope wasn’t the fault of the Spectra core, it was with the finished rope that had a polyester cover of some sort that didn’t stand up to UV and wear.

UHMWPE on its own has reasonable UV resistance, but coating of the entire line or of individual fibres during the manufacturing process can increase that. UV-protected line is more expensive, so is often not used for ropes that will be covered. Check that when buying UHMWPE core rope that you plan to strip the cover off of.

Correct.

And well made and well taken care of UHMWPE ropes can last a long, long time, inherently longer lived than polyester.

My boat was originally built with Dyneema running rigging in 2001, and some of the original Dyneema ropes are still in use. I will replace the staysail sheet this year, retiring the old one after 20 years of service. The original Dyneema running backstays are still fit for purpose.

Good cordage is a lovely, lovely thing.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Good cordage is a lovely, lovely thing.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by GILow

A reasonable extrapolation from a 26 footer to a 44 footer. Possibly conservative really.

A further thought.

It would probably cost the same amount to do on this new boat as it would on your current 42 footer. Lengths and diams would be almost identical.

I would stick with named names such as Donaghys or one I have bought a far bit of string from over the years, Whittams of Melbourne.
Mas aqui https://whittamropes.com.au/products/marine-ropes/

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by waterman46

If you did it for $700 why would it cost the OP thousands?

Because my boat is a 26' fractional sloop and the OP is asking about a 44' cutter.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Ummm, Spectra and Dyneema are made from the same material - UHMWPE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene) - they are simply registered brand names. Spectra was developed by Honeywell Corporation in the US, while Dyneema was developed by DSM in the Netherlands. There are now lots of other makers of UHMWPE rope. Depending on their exact manufacturing process different UHMWPE lines have slightly different characteristics (such as stretch and creep, UV protection, abrasion resistance, etc), but they’re all made from the same material.

Rope manufactures use the various UHMWPE lines as core materials and are over-braided with polyester (usually) covers to create a rope. That combination of core plus cover is where the different handling characteristics and performance come from.

Your poor experience with that particular Spectra rope wasn’t the fault of the Spectra core, it was with the finished rope that had a polyester cover of some sort that didn’t stand up to UV and wear.

UHMWPE on its own has reasonable UV resistance, but coating of the entire line or of individual fibres during the manufacturing process can increase that. UV-protected line is more expensive, so is often not used for ropes that will be covered. Check that when buying UHMWPE core rope that you plan to strip the cover off of.

Good info to know. That line was a single braid, no cover, tan colored, and I had the rigging shop at our local chandlery make it up with eye spices to attach to a short section of polyester. I think perhaps it died due to chafe rather than anything else. If so it was my bad.


The highest tech lines on your boat should match your expectations for sail trim and performance. If you have a boat intended for competition then you probably want the lowest stretch lines available. For my boat I only needed low stretch in the main halyard where I found myself constantly going to the mast to tighten it. So I got something called VPC which is about 1/3 the cost of Dyneema but it seemed to solve all the stretch problems. It is a hard line, not so good for genoa sheets.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by waterman46

...The highest tech lines on your boat should match your expectations for sail trim and performance. If you have a boat intended for competition then you probably want the lowest stretch lines available....

Or if you just want to be able to go upwind properly on a cruising boat.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

So, Matt, what happened? Is it a winner? And where were you at 2140 yesterday?

Jim

Oh… er, sorry about that. Things have been somewhat busy with this boat appearing on the radar. And now I’m back on dry land again.


Yes, offer was accepted in writing today, sending through the deposit tomorrow then there will be a few weeks before we can get it up to town for me to survey it. Not expecting any problems.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

A further thought.



It would probably cost the same amount to do on this new boat as it would on your current 42 footer. Lengths and diams would be almost identical.



I would stick with named names such as Donaghys or one I have bought a far bit of string from over the years, Whittams of Melbourne.

Mas aqui https://whittamropes.com.au/products/marine-ropes/

Offer was accepted so I’ll be doing some serious shopping. Not in a rush though, probably a year away from doing the running rigging. I’ll do the standing rigging immediately though, using our favourite Kiwi guys, KZMarine.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by GILow

Offer was accepted so I’ll be doing some serious shopping. Not in a rush though, probably a year away from doing the running rigging. I’ll do the standing rigging immediately though, using our favourite Kiwi guys, KZMarine.

Oh, so congrats are in order, . Is it too early to enlighten us, you know you want to.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Oh, so congrats are in order, . Is it too early to enlighten us, you know you want to.

I’m buying another Swanson 42, plus two lengths of aluminium tube.

I figure I’ll make my own catamaran.

Stay tuned… all will be revealed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Or if you just want to be able to go upwind properly on a cruising boat.. . .

But "properly"? How about "at all"?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But "properly"? How about "at all"?

From memory, DH, you have mentioned that with your carbon blade jib the sheet loads are extraordinarily high... so perhaps your own experience supports this kinda ridiculous idea. But there are a large number of folks who have managed to go upwind with stretchy ole polyester sheets. Perhaps not quite as well as with carbon/dyneema combinations, but then most cruisers don't have the budget for such cutting edge stuff. I know that I don't!

In Matt's case, I suspect he will end up with dacron jibs. The potential added performance from low stretch sheets may not be measurable, certainly not game changing, even hard on the wind.

Halyards... well, that's different! I agree that the lowest stretch line that you can afford is a good investment there!

Jim

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But "properly"? How about "at all"?

On most cruising boats the upwind limitation is not the type of rope used for sheets or halyards.

And think of this, if the length of the sheet from the clew to the winch is 10' (on my boat it is about 1.5'), a little bit of stretch, such as in polyester line (4%) at near breaking strength (which would be very hard to achieve anyway) would ease the sheet about 5". Typically it would be less than an inch. Not the end of the world.

Halyard stretch can be more significant. However, my experience is that once you have hoisted it and tensioned it, the stretch is mostly constant and it does not keep stretching.

All that being said, I use dyneema or aramid in all my running rigging.

And despite the reports of others, uncovered dyneema is not foolproof. I have broken three 6mm dyneema halyards and one 6mm lifeline. No chafe was involved, nor hard corners. I've concluded that eye splices must be very carefully done or they can cause hard spots which can cause failure. And after three years of hard UV exposure they look ragged and need replacement.