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Michigan_Eric · 13-05-2024, 06:38

Just to be clear, here are the constraints I have when it comes to trying to emulate land-bound comfort on my boat, especially when it comes to hot and cold pressure water.

And I'll use the "beating a dead horse" emoji while I'm at it, just to get ahead of *that* retort. There you are ->

1) My boat is 31 feet long. Right there, you don't have yacht-like comfort. While my insurance company regards any boat longer than 26 feet a "yacht", she's not what I consider to be a yacht. She's a seaworthy, mid-sized sailboat with 6 feet zero inches standing headrom and comfortable berths for two or three small-to-average-sized people (even though she "sleeps six"), among other features that make cruising on her for the summer pleasantly comfortable. That's all I need and all I want.

2) The water tank">fresh water tank holds 38 gallons. That's it. If I want to have more, I have to carry several big awkward jerry cans up on deck or in the cockpit. Nope.

3) She has a 2-cylinder, 18 hp Volvo Penta diesel. I call it "my little Swedish two-banger". That is the primary source of heat for the hot water tank, which holds six gallons. How long would I have to run the engine to get the water in that tank up to temperature? Probably several hours. If we have to motor for a long way, that's fine, and we have hot water then, yayyyy! Let's take a hot shower in the head and use half of our fresh water supply! And we have to shower separately, because although the head is "big" for a 31-footer, it's about the size of a phone booth.

4) How long will the hot water tank maintain the temperature? If we arrive at our destination with it full of piping hot water (not likely), will it maintain that temperature overnight? (At anchor, not plugged into shore power.) And if we run hot water, the water displacing it in the tank will be cold, and take it back down to lukewarm. And I will *not* run the engine for several hours, especially with no load on it, just to heat the water up again. There are few things I hate more than when peeps run their engines or generators in a beautiful anchorage and fill it with noise and exhaust fumes, so I'm not going to do that either. Besides, it's bad for the engine.

5) The conditions under which I could use hot water run contrary to how I use the boat. If I arrive at a remote anchorage, I will need to conserve water, so no I'm not going to take a hot shower with what little water I have. And if I arrive at a marina, I'm going to shower on shore no matter how much hot water is in the tank or how hot it is.

6) The electric heater element in the tank is ineffective. And while I'm pretty sure the one in my tank is burned out anyway because the water was still cold after running it for three hours, maybe you have to let it run for 18 or 24 hours to get hot water. Of what use is that?

The basic problem with my boat and its hot water setup is one of scale. A 31-foot sailboat does not carry enough water on board, has an anemic heat supply, and shore-power heat in the one place where you're better off using shore facilities.

The real cause of this issue is how boat builders try to call everything they sell, even a 20-footer, a "yacht". To do this they offer as expensive upgrades such "luxury" features as hot and cold pressure water. Sure they can install the pump and the hot water tank and the mixer faucets and all the plumbing and electrical wiring and it all works, but never in a satisfactory way. What's important for them is that they upsold you and made some extra margin.

I doubt that on my boat the previous owners ever considered the "hot" water to ever really be "hot", unless they left it plugged into shore power with the water heater on for three days (which also carries extra risk of fire). And then as soon as you wash dishes or even wash your hands thoroughly, what is left in the tank is only half as hot as before. If you want the water up to temperature again, just wait 12 hours.

Pressure hot water works on boats of appropriate size that can carry lots of fresh water (at least 250 gallons), have a hot water tank of at least 20 gallons, and a heat source like a big honkin' 100 hp or more engine that has *lots* of heat to dispense, and a genset if you want to run electrical resistance heat for it.

None of that applies to my boat.

So the hot water tank is coming out, if not today then by the end of this week. As for the pressure water, it's hooked up now with only one small drip on the downstream side of the check valve, so I'll probably leave it in place for now.

sck5 · 13-05-2024, 06:45

Do you have a wife or female companion? If so, you might have a problem if you get rid of hot water.

rslifkin · 13-05-2024, 07:02

We carry about 110 gallons of water but in coastal cruising where we can fill the tank at least weekly, that's not a big deal. Even at a marina we generally shower on board instead of on land as it's easier to just use our own shower that already has our stuff in it.

With a well insulated 11 gallon water heater that heats to ~170 degrees (and uses a mixing valve to reduce the output temperature) there's plenty of hot water for easily 24 hours without heat being added unless something has used a lot of hot water (we tend to use it mostly for showers, not much for hand washing or dishes). Realistically, when taking a quick boat shower, I don't tend to want the water as warm as I might at home (especially if the weather is hot), so as long as I can take a shower that's not cold, that's good enough.

A typical on-boat shower for me uses 3 - 4 gallons of water, slightly more for the admiral with her longer hair. With showers, cooking, dishes, drinking, etc. our daily consumption never averages more than 15 gal / day for 2 people. That's far more than some of the serious water savers on here use, but it's still not a huge amount.

In your case, it sounds like the primary issue is inadequate water tankage. 38 gallons is rather small for a cruising boat, even at 31 feet. It sounds like the builder sized the tankage for day sailing, an occasional weekend, etc. but not for longer periods on board.

MicHughV · 13-05-2024, 07:22

It doesn't much help to ask your typical male skipper/boatowner whether or not he really needs pressurized water (hot or cold or both) on a boat, as you'll get a typical male response.

Instead ask the same question to the woman on the boat, be that wife, girlfriend, daughter, etc, and you'll get a decidedly different response.

**Don C L** · 13-05-2024, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicHughV

It doesn't much help to ask your typical male skipper/boatowner whether or not he really needs pressurized water (hot or cold or both) on a boat, as you'll get a typical male response.

Instead ask the same question to the woman on the boat, be that wife, girlfriend, daughter, etc, and you'll get a decidedly different response.

Yeah, she’ll say she wants a bigger boat!

Michigan_Eric · 13-05-2024, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don C L

Yeah, she’ll say she wants a bigger boat!

Ah, but my Tartan is a real charmer, despite her small tank capacity.

As I often say, first she stole my heart, then she stole my wallet.

Michigan_Eric · 13-05-2024, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by rslifkin

In your case, it sounds like the primary issue is inadequate water tankage. 38 gallons is rather small for a cruising boat, even at 31 feet. It sounds like the builder sized the tankage for day sailing, an occasional weekend, etc. but not for longer periods on board.

I have to agree. But 38 gallons can go a long way, depending on how you manage it. Also, I don't do extended passages. When cruising on the Great Lakes, even in remote areas you are not far from a harbor town.

MicHughV · 13-05-2024, 16:47

I think the reality of the situation also encompasses a few other things not mentioned here.

I hit the road...er....seas... in my 20's. I didn't have much money, but what I lacked in finances I made up in zeal. My boat at the time, was a home built affair, with few, if any luxuries. Fresh water was a precious commodity, not to be wasted on showers.

Onboard water tankage was pitifully small, and my decks were lined with 6 gallon plastic jugs.
I caught and collected rainwater whenever I could to supplement my water stash, often changing direction to position my boat under a rain shower for as long as I could.

Most other cruisers I got to know at the time, were similarly equipped. From time to time, various female shipmates came onboard and made do with what I had to offer, which, as I've already said, was minimal at best. Most all jumped ship, when a hot shower was offered elsewhere.

That was then.....not at all what it is now. Creature comforts abound wherever you look. Wife is happy, which in turn makes me happy. My job is to keep it all running smoothly. Mind you, I'm not 20 anymore either and have grown accustomed to an abundance of everything I never had before.

So youth certainly plays a big part in whether water pressure is a requirement or not and for this thread to make sense, posters ought to post their age with their comments.

Mike OReilly · 13-05-2024, 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michigan_Eric

I have to agree. But 38 gallons can go a long way, depending on how you manage it. Also, I don't do extended passages. When cruising on the Great Lakes, even in remote areas you are not far from a harbor town.

Not all the Great Lakes. One of the reasons I moved to a composter was for exactly this reason. But I was cruising the Canadian side of Lake Superior. Harbours are a long way apart up there, and pump outs, even further.

sailingharry · 14-05-2024, 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michigan_Eric

So the hot water tank is coming out, if not today then by the end of this week. As for the pressure water, it's hooked up now with only one small drip on the downstream side of the check valve, so I'll probably leave it in place for now.

You have strong aversion to the hot water tank! I'm not sure you've actually used it much, as your impressions don't match well with reality.
Our tank is 10 gallons (much bigger boat -- 43'). I suspect, but have not measured it, that well under an h our will get it to 180F, which is enough to kill you (literally). I have added a tempering valve, which adjusts as necessary to keep the water about 100F. Early on, it adds a lot of cold, as the tank cools down it adds less. Safety, as well as convenience. Low use, coupled with high initial temp and a bit of insulation (as built), and we can easily do dishes in hot water the next morning. Even take a shower, if we are quick.
The electric element is a 1kW element, so can easily heat from cold to hot in an hour or so. Of course, it requires shore power. If yours isn't noticeably warmer in an hour, you have no power to it, a dead element, or a dead thermostat (I recently had to replace my thermostat).

We shower fairly often (every other day or so), and are only moderately conservative on water, and we use about 10 gallons a day (in your boat, that's probably 3 nights out). On my last boat (34'), where in a decade I took exactly zero showers (weekends don't need them, longer trips had enough marinas), my daily use was closer to 5 gallons (or a week aboard on your boat).
Yes, pressure water is a hog. My father used to tell a story of doing the Newport to Bermuda race, with pressure water on, and were all but out by the time they got to Bermuda. They then turned off the pressure water, and did the Trans Atlantic (Bermuda to Copenhagen, Denmark), and had enough water left to take showers!
At 30 feet, the hot water tank may be too much space -- and that's a valid issue. But if you are blaming the unit as "ineffective," that's not a fair objection.
Pressure water is a different story. It takes very little space, is mostly a set and forget (on this boat, with over 10,000 miles including 8 months of full time life aboard, my only maintenance has been yearly change of the carbon filter and one "open and clean" of the pump head). The carbon filter would be good on the hand pump as well, though. But more importantly, it is NOT a case of "pressure water, or hand pump." My boat has a foot pump as well as the pressure water. I can use either. And if I turn off the breaker, I only have the foot pump. If you don't use it but leave it installed, it is easier than removing it, you can re-activate in the future, and a future buyer won't ask about the holes in your counter top -- and the space/weight savings are minimal.

MikeHoncho · 14-05-2024, 07:25

Well, thats a very open-ended question that you can only answer given how you use the boat, where you use it and who you use it with. I have never actually used my hot water tank to heat the water, it is always used for the engine to heat the water and store it. If I was always by myself, I might not use pressure water as we only use our water system for washing dishes and showers. We consider it not potable but even at that, there is no way I could get my wife to do multi-week trip without a pressure system or plumbed hot water. My water heater is very efficient. We routinely have very warm water the morning after motoring. Consider resale. A 30 foot sailboat with a galley and bathroom and no water system is a significant negative.

**Dockhead** · 14-05-2024, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by rslifkin

. . . In your case, it sounds like the primary issue is inadequate water tankage. 38 gallons is rather small for a cruising boat, even at 31 feet. It sounds like the builder sized the tankage for day sailing, an occasional weekend, etc. but not for longer periods on board.

I would second that.

Previous boat was only 36.5 feet, but it had 150 gallons of water tankage, and a calorifier with enough capacity for two good hot showers plus washing dishes.

38 gallons is just not enough for any kind of serious cruising. This could surely be increased. I've seen 30 foot boats with a lot more tankage than that.

rslifkin · 14-05-2024, 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would second that.

Previous boat was only 36.5 feet, but it had 150 gallons of water tankage, and a calorifier with enough capacity for two good hot showers plus washing dishes.

38 gallons is just not enough for any kind of serious cruising. This could surely be increased. I've seen 30 foot boats with a lot more tankage than that.

To add on to this, for those concerned about weight, don't be. As long as you can fit the tankage without sacrificing anything important, it's worth having. Nothing says you have to fill the tanks all the way every time, only when you'll want the extra water.

Michigan_Eric · 18-05-2024, 09:49

(The videos linked here are also posted to another thread about my heat exchanger leak. The work I describe in the videos I link here is relevant to both. So... sorry for cross-posting.)

I removed the hot water tank on Thursday. It was part of work to replace a leaky fitting on the engine heat exchanger. I'm keeping the pressure water system for now, but only with cold water, which is all it had anyway.

Part of this work involved removing the anti-siphon loop. That was a controversial decision. All the extra tubes, coupled with engine vibration, were the cause of the leak in the raw water fitting. I make it a practice to close the raw water intake when the engine is not in use (I hang the engine key from the handle so I can't start it until I retrieve the key and open the seacock).