Couple with No Sailing Experience Buying Catamaran and In Need of Insurance Advice

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by Pete17C

A competent sailing instructor / paid skipper should be able to get you up and going in a week, two tops, if you bang at it for at least 8 hrs a day.

Do a full day or two of close quarter maneuver/docking and you'll be a pro. If you only do this 2 times a day, yeah it'll take much longer. Same goes with reefing, MOB, anchoring and the rest. You want a crash course. I took the US Sailing Basic Cruising and we did no less than 18 MOB drills one day (3 students, 6 times each, one of the other students even volunteered to jump over so we could actually practice getting him back on board). FWIW, you can crash course a FAA pilots license in two weeks (you need a min of 40hrs).

Make sure your instructor/skipper knows his engine, electrical, plumbing systems and have them show you how to use/maintain yours.

Then go have fun with your new boat!!

Pete17C, thank you for your encouragement and very practical advice which we will follow. My wife and I are a quick learn; however, we understand that experience with a knowledgeable skipper is invaluable and I hadn't thought about the fact that they can help with teaching us about the many systems that we will be maintaining. Thank again and happy sailing!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

If there is a mortgage, doubt if bank will allow liability only insurance. That would be a huge loss with liability insurance. Hire a captain and get good insurance. Let the captain take the responsibility while you learn.

I am with most others. Learn your mistakes on a smaller boat for a couple of years with certifications. Do some bareboats. This kind of commitment can put undue strain on any relationship.

My wife has no desire to sail over 500 miles open water. She also doesn't want to spend years on a boat. We bought a house near a beach and smaller (cheaper) boat for weeks to a month travels staying near land.

Everything looks better in front of youtube. Cleaning out the head while the fuel filters are clogging again with 10 foot waves 3 second duration, heading into 30-40 knot gale with sick crew will strain any relationship. Period.

Thanks again for your advice. I am fortunate and thankful that my wife wants to sail and live on the water. We are taking a risk; however, the probably worse thing is that we sell the boat if it doesn't work out but we are pretty persistent and quick learners and above all LOVE the water. We are definitely taking the required courses and are getting a skipper for as long as it takes to be confident. Insurance will not keep you from doing stupid stuff on the water, but competence should help tremendously. Thanks again for weighing in and keep those cards and letters coming! : )

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Sorry if this comes across harsh but it's a lot easier to back out now rather than later...

You just added a few more red flags.

Going uninsured particularly on a newer boat is a huge risk and complete losses are not nearly as uncommon as you think. I've seen 3 different boats still tied up in their slips...sitting on the bottom, so it doesn't take a hurricane or extreme conditions. Liability only works if you pick up an old boat for $5k.

Also, first purchase, expect to take a loss if you sell and expect it to take a long time to sell unless you slash the price heavily which makes for a bigger loss. Expect to incur significant ongoing monthly costs while waiting for it to sell. Boats aren't like houses which go up in value year after year.

All this while there are huge issues getting to and from the boat and many services not available. I'm moving into the camp that suggests backing out if you have the ability. Odds of things going pear shaped are really high given the info you have provided and the current situation. Unfortunately, reading between the lines on your responses...you appear to be in the honeymoon phase and are heavily focused on the positive responses.

Hi Vahalla, thanks again for your concern and for posting with your advice which is all well received. Yes, you are probably right that we are in the honeymoon phase, but heck if that didn't happen, probably none of us would have ever gotten married, right? We all end up finding out soon that marriage is not a bed of roses and neither is having kids for that matter, but when we look back at it, it was worth it. So that's where we're at; however, ff this purchase falls through (we will find out today), we will probably go back to the US and then slow down a bit more and fall right in line with your advice. Now we are in LUV and are dating pretty heavy with idea of owning this very special boat . . . haha. Thanks again, and we are grateful and humbled to be a part of this community.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by Greg K

You're wrong about not having to insure the vessel in EU waters. For all practical purposes it is mandatory. In Greece, where you will presumably be starting off, every harbor master will demand proof of insurance, and you will have to check in with the harbor masters at every new island you visit to have your transit log stamped. The idea that you can cruise the Med without ever having to go into a harbor or marina is utter nonsense. Sooner than later you will be required to show proof of insurance.

Highly unlikely any European insurance broker will offer coverage for your vessel, as presumably being an American, you will have her US flagged. Your only option will be to find a US broker who is willing to insure you for Med sailing with no experience. That's a tough one. Liability only, maybe.

May I ask a personal question? How old are you guys? You say you're retiring, but I get the sense from your posts that you're pretty young.

Hi GregK, thanks for posting and for your advice. Good to know and we will use your information to make sure that we make the right moves before doing something stupid. Of course, if I do, it won't be the first time ; ). Thanks for asking about my wife and I. We are 50 and 56 years old and love traveling and most of all tropical water, white sandy beaches and palm trees along with scuba diving and we cannot think of any way better to enjoy all of these than to live on a boat. We want to do it while we are still relatively young and heck, one of us could come down with cancer and the dream would be over, right? So we are doing it while we can and don't have all of the answers. We may start working again wherever we go, who knows, and that is part of the excitement and adventure for us. Hope to see you out on the water my friend!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by snort

All I can think of to say is, "That's one helluva first boat!"

LOL!!! Hilarious! Thanks for posting. Well heck, when you retire and it's going to be your primary home, then it makes sense, right? We're just going for it! Whoooohooooo!! ; ). Hope to see you on the water!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by boatman61

No Offense meant and not really a Put Down.. more a question as to whether yours was a genuine post or yet another Troll from Sailing Anarchy or another Forum.
You would be amazed how many single posters suddenly appear and then are never seen again.
I was biding my time to see if this was yet another and, after 45 answers thought I would see if a 'Dig' would raise signs of life as we know it..
After 10yrs of responding to such Threads one does become cynical.

Thanks Phil. Everyone says you're a good guy. I'm just a newbie desperate for advice and all of your comments have been invaluable and we are both humbled and grateful.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Regarding Insurance I would suggest a minimum of Liability Insurance.. if the worst comes to the worst and you ram someone while dragging anchor or get hit by someone else it helps to have someone who knows the ropes in your corner. Also, dinghying back and forth with fuel to the boat gets old pretty fast and if anything happens going to or leaving the fuel dock your screwed.
The benefits far outweigh the relatively small fee.
If you do get the Lagoon I would suggest the first few days with the skipper of your choice be both you and your wife (if possible) getting competent and comfortable operating the boat under power before thinking about the sails.
Roomy or half empty anchorages are very few and far between during the season in the Med and with 26 odd feet beam learning to judge your distances and control the condo under power in windy conditions is vital.
Your greatest challenges will come doing Med Moorings and in crowded anchorages when under power.. the good thing however is with two engines its much much easier than a monohull and with a bit of practice you'll be able to turn on a dime and look dead cool.
You should with practice be able to walk your 45ft boat in sideways onto a quayside into a 50ft gap.. not unknown when going to refuel.

Another thing about Insurance is.. what are your plans.???
Staying in the Med.. try Pantaenius UK or ask the broker for some advice on local companies.
Certificates..
https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-adv...ng-an-icc.aspx

Now that's GREAT information, Phil! A treasure trove for a newbie from and old pro and we will follow all of it. Thank you! With regards to where we will be going, it will be the Med for the summer and then to the Bahamas in November. After that, our dream is to slowly circumnavigate. Maybe we could meet in the Azores? Keep those cards and letters coming. Thank again!

[ccannan]

An ICC isn’t required in most EU countries. That said it would be good to get.

For all practical purposes, you will at a minimum need liability insurance in the Med. The requirement is virtually unavoidable. Many, including me have pointed out that if you will borrow money to purchase the boat, your lender will insist on hull insurance.

If you get the boat you are facing a very, very steep, and expensive learning curve. Many weeks of classes. Identifying, and hiring a competent skipper. Preparing your vessel for sea (there is lots of real work in that simple statement). Obtaining insurance, and the list continues.

I assume you had the boat surveyed and there weren’t any glaring, to you, issues. But even new boats have issues. Are you and or your spouse mechanically inclined? If not, who will do the maintenance and fix the items that inevitably fail?

In a previous post you mentioned leaving the Med in November. Assuming neither you and your spouse are dual US/EU citizens you should know that you’ll get 90 days out of every 180 days in the EU. It’s possible to manage the requirements but might prove very, very difficult as beginners.

I’m not trying to dissuade you from your plans, just trying to highlight some very real obstacles.

Good luck with your purchase and plans.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by ccannan

An ICC isn’t required in most EU countries. That said it would be good to get.

For all practical purposes, you will at a minimum need liability insurance in the Med. The requirement is virtually unavoidable. Many, including me have pointed out that if you will borrow money to purchase the boat, your lender will insist on hull insurance.

If you get the boat you are facing a very, very steep, and expensive learning curve. Many weeks of classes. Identifying, and hiring a competent skipper. Preparing your vessel for sea (there is lots of real work in that simple statement). Obtaining insurance, and the list continues.

I assume you had the boat surveyed and there weren’t any glaring, to you, issues. But even new boats have issues. Are you and or your spouse mechanically inclined? If not, who will do the maintenance and fix the items that inevitably fail?

In a previous post you mentioned leaving the Med in November. Assuming neither you and your spouse are dual US/EU citizens you should know that you’ll get 90 days out of every 180 days in the EU. It’s possible to manage the requirements but might prove very, very difficult as beginners.

I’m not trying to dissuade you from your plans, just trying to highlight some very real obstacles.

Good luck with your purchase and plans.

Thanks for the advice Ccannan!

On the list is to first take a lot of sailing courses for certification and then to hire a skipper for as long as it takes to be comfortable operating our boat, especially getting in and out of marinas.

We will purchase our boat without financing so that should simplify things a bit and are aware of what kind of maintenance is to be done on the boat and you are correct it will be a big learning curve; however, we will be retired and have the time to learn and hopefully do most things ourselves. We are also prepared and look forward (ignorance is bliss, right? ; ) to taking all of the classes and hiring a skipper until we are totally confident with handling the boat, especially in and out of the marina.

Wow, I hadn't thought about the EU visa limits. For some reason, I was thinking that we could deal with each country separately, but I guess they are all tied together. It appears that when our EU visa limit runs out that we can to Turkey, Croatia, or Cyprus so there are some options, right?

We are pretty hard-headed and have lived internationally as teachers for many years and are used to the chaos. Hopefully, through persistence and learning fast, we will be able to achieve our dreams and that will make it all the better! Hope to see you out there and happy sailing! All the best : )

[JPA Cate]

OKay, here comes doom and gloom again!

It is that your experience as multinational instructors (folks in charge) doesn't inform your dealings with the ocean. You think you learn from You Tubes. It is not that it is impossible to learn from them: some are intentionally instructive. But cruising sailor ones do not manage to show those things that you will be better off if you learn about first!

You don't know me from a box of chalk, but fwiw, I quit counting after 150,000 n. mi. cruising. You are free to disregard this claim. While it is true, it may not matter to you. I am not saying you can't do what you want to do. But I am saying that you need to keep some respect for the milieu into which you are voyaging.

When's the last time you told someone to not end a sentence with a preposition?

It's not just about being smart, educated, or articulate or manipulating internet conversations. It is that you guys sound like you are feeling risk free with your plans. And, to me, it is more that you should be showing risk-mitigating thoughts. If you mis-read weather like you mis-read Boatman 61's comment, you're trouble bound.

Ann

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

OKay, here comes doom and gloom again!

It is that your experience as multinational instructors (folks in charge) doesn't inform your dealings with the ocean. You think you learn from You Tubes. It is not that it is impossible to learn from them: some are intentionally instructive. But cruising sailor ones do not manage to show those things that you will be better off if you learn about first!

You don't know me from a box of chalk, but fwiw, I quit counting after 150,000 n. mi. cruising. You are free to disregard this claim. While it is true, it may not matter to you. I am not saying you can't do what you want to do. But I am saying that you need to keep some respect for the milieu into which you are voyaging.

When's the last time you told someone to not end a sentence with a preposition?

It's not just about being smart, educated, or articulate or manipulating internet conversations. It is that you guys sound like you are feeling risk free with your plans. And, to me, it is more that you should be showing risk-mitigating thoughts. If you mis-read weather like you mis-read Boatman 61's comment, you're trouble bound.

Ann

Anne, we respect our lives and the power of the ocean and we are looking forward to our new adventure and will proceed cautiously, but we are going to proceed. We have learned a lot from the good people at CF and are humbled and grateful.

[RicardoFarinha]

Hi SV Blown Away,

I can help with the insurance part, send me an email and I can start getting the better quotation for you guys.

I have a Cat myself.

Safe winds!

rf@fiducs.com

[wolfgal]

hello and welcome to CF!

forgive me for not reading all the posts (i usually do out of respect to the community and suggest you do the same before responding), but since your boat is in Greece and i did my RYA training there...

There are quite a few RYA sailing school courses you could do with sailing schools in Greece.

you could start with a five-day Competent Crew course and do smaller courses at the weekend (Nav and Seamanship; Marine Radio, for example).

from there, you could ask for private tuition on-board your boat and then move into the Dayskipper course. (Do not jump straight away into the Dayskipper: you really need to know HOW to sail beforehand.)

from there, you will likely be HOOKED to sailing.

from there, you can apply for the ICC card which is valid for five years and will basically get you in and out of ports in the Med (though they will likely come up with an immunity passport for us before you can say BOO).

do not stop there. do a serious safety at sea course and learn all you can about boat maintenance.

and the MOST important thing i can suggest is that your wife be instructed by a female sailor without you. she needs to think about what she would do and not what you would tell her to do. the latter is a couple-trap that starts with love and ends with pain. many, many, many couples fall into it, and the same will tell you that it killed the dream.



good luck to you! and keep us posted!





wolfie

[Fore and Aft]

Wolfgal is soooo right, it does not matter if your boat is 10 feet or 100 feet when things get stressful some people cannot help yelling. Even the most mild mannered person can let there inner devil loose and it’s usually a guy doing the yelling. I recently helped a couple dock a cat and the guy really needed a lesson in manners. I always let the wife dock as I am stronger and quicker in fending off if anything goes wrong. That’s on a 10 meter yacht, what do you do on a Lagoon 45? Have a step ladder on the deck so you can get down to the dock from the topsides? I know you can easily step on to the dock from the sugar scoops but hell your only newbies and you are going to have a few interesting moments I bet.
Remember more relationships have been wrecked on boats, than boats wrecked on rocks!
You probably are thinking my grammar and spelling is shocking. But no worries, by your philosophy I am applying for a job at Oxford next week!
Cheers

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by SV Blown Away

Wow, I hadn't thought about the EU visa limits. For some reason, I was thinking that we could deal with each country separately, but I guess they are all tied together. It appears that when our EU visa limit runs out that we can to Turkey, Croatia, or Cyprus so there are some options, right?

Please check this out DON'T take my word for it.

If your boat is VAT paid, second hand boats usually are, then provided it stays inside the EU it retains it's VAT status. If it becomes owned by a non-EU citizen/resident and it is removed from the EU, (ie Turkey) it will in theory loose that status. VAT would then became due again after 18 months. Not a problem if your plans go to plan but if not it could result in a very big bill. It may affect your resale value if you don't like it.

This is totally unrelated to "your" Schengen VISA status.

To complicate things or make things better Croatia is in the EU but not Schengen. Cyprus is in the EU and respects Schengen VISA's but is not an offical Schengen member yet.