Couple with No Sailing Experience Buying Catamaran and In Need of Insurance Advice

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Originally Posted by KenSmithPEng

First of all, congratulations!

You are embarking on your next adventure and in my humble opinion, you are going in the right direction

My wife and I started sailing on 48 ft Cats and they are a breeze to handle.

Knowing that you have no experience, you will have to get a certified skipper to work with you.

It just so happens that my wife ( young and retired Engineer) and I are both skippers complete with euro cerification. We would be interested in talking with you about opportunities.

Message me on this website or email me at kensmithpeng@gmail.com and let’s chat.

Hi Ken. Thanks for responding with your encouragement and good advice. I have your information and may be in touch a little further down the road. Today, we should hear if we get the Lagoon, and then we can make more plans from there. Thanks for the contact info and happy sailing!

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Originally Posted by rancher44

OK I sailed on lakes and coastal cruising. I bought a cat from Moorings. I did not expect all of the outrageous cost of maintenance . the cost to insurance seemed out of site but I got good coverage . then the insurance company sold to Gieco
I did not read the fine print and a lot of the stuff covered under the old policy was not covered in the new .
My boat was lost in the hurricane in Panama city florida. total loss .
I lost about 75K because off poor coverage [I had 300K in the boat]


Please insure your boat to the max.


Also as far as sailing experience just take a the sailing courses 1,2,3,and a cat course that will help with the insurance. The moorings offer all of those courses. Or there are many schools in USA cheaper.

Rancher44, thanks for commenting and for sharing your experience and advice which we will follow! Happy sailing!

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Originally Posted by Augi

Compared to many on the forum, I am very much a newbie. After going on bareboat charters with friends and family several times over 50 years, the last three years I got ASA certified to bare boat charter. I have gone on bare boat charters at different locations around the world for 6 weeks a year. What is viable now versus three years ago is night and day.

My wife decided she has no interest in sailing. Therefore, it makes no sense in my case to buy a boat. My schedule is flexible so I can charter in the shoulder with great weather, less crowd at lower price and rent the boat that fits the crew, and cruising grounds. If my wife was interested we would be cruising 6 months a year. I have chartered everything from a Pogo 30 to a Lagoon 45. If my wife was interested we would buy a completely different boat now versus three years ago and the type of cruising we would do would be completely different.

Maybe your current plan will work but the odds are against it. On the positive side sometimes when you jump in with both feet and have not a good option other than making what you jumped into work, you over come the odds and obstacles and the adventure is well worth it.

You definitely are trying to sprint(not just run), before you can even crawl.

As another poster said, doing the boat purchase other than in your home country, especially a place like Greece, is sprinting before you can crawl, in terms of buying a boat.

The best advice I saw posted was move to tiny studio apartment walking distance to a yacht club that offers all the sailing courses you could ever want, and allows you to use all different makes and sizes of sailboats from dinghies to 40 ft cruisers. The locations at the top of my list being American would be either Chesapeake Bay or San Fran. If I was European I would chose Croatia. I would look to do the RYA courses or US Sailing courses not the ASA courses. The two former are much more thorough than the later.

After a year you will start to know what you don't know and likely make a lot of new friends to sail with and have a lot of fun doing the above.

Augi, thanks for commenting and for your advice. We really appreciate it! Happy sailing : ).

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Originally Posted by Dougtiff

Check out the UTUBE channel " gone with the wynns", it's about a couple that buys a large Cat, with NO sailing experience, they hire a full time captain [female], that teaches them how to sail over i think about a month, and off they go, been at it now for a couple of year's, with no major dramas, and there insured.

GREAT post, thank you! Yes, we follow them on YouTube and thanks to your post, I looked back at those four videos when they were learning on their new boat with their captain and I will be watching them tonight! We also follow others like SV Delos, Sailing Zatara, and Vagabond and they have encouraged us to take the leap. We even had Keith with Sailing Zatara video call us on Whatapp yesterday and he talked to us for twenty minutes and gave us some incredible uncommon advice. Happy sailing and thanks again for taking the time to comment!

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Originally Posted by Lanaton

Congratulations
We did a similar thing, we bought a new Lagoon 42, first boat with very little experience, which raised a few eyebrows with other yachties. We both did our IYT yacht masters Coastal Skippers certificate training before we ordered our boat. Lots of negative comments on here and not really answering your question. We got an experienced skipper who was well known to our insurance company to assist with our first leg across the bay of Biscay as this can be notoriously challenging. The hired skipper was brilliant and a wealth of knowledge so we were like sponges. It’s like on the job training on your own boat which is what you need and probably the most cost effective.
The main advice is speak to well known recommended insurance companies, get some qualifications, and an experienced Captain on your boat during the early stages until you feel comfortable to go on your own, you will learn very quickly, also you will have no problems satisfying insurance companies.
Go out and enjoy your boat, we love it.

GREAT advice and encouragement, thank you! We will follow it all : ) Happy sailing!

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Originally Posted by Greg K

So, let me see if I understand your situation. You dreamed your whole life about "sailing the world" but never thought to learn how to sail and gain some experience in all those years. And you are teachers? You know, specialists in learning.
Unbelievable

Let me set the story straight. You do not understand our situation and are not helpful. Happy sailing.

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Originally Posted by jmschmidt

Based on what you stated you will not be able to buy insurance period. Today insurance in not only required to finance your purchase if you don't have cash, it is required by nearly every marina in the civilized world and is required to enter the territorial waters of many foreign countries.

If you buy the boat, hire an experienced skipper to sail with you for at least a year. Then take one of the many certification programs. You most likely will not be able to sail your boat in Greece due to insurance and certification requirement in the EU without an EU certified skipper. .

Hi jmschmidt, thanks for posting : ). From what we have learned so far, we will need at least an ICC certification which is similar to a bareboat charter sailing certification. Most marinas require liability insurance; however, if you're off the hook then you don't have to have insurance. Many have stressed on this thread that insurance does not keep you from doing stupid stuff with a boat, but good training and experience with a skipper on board for however long it takes is more invaluable. That's what we know so far and we are looking forward to learning and growing. Hope to meet you out there sometime. Happy sailing!

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Originally Posted by sailingchiro

Hire a captain to run your boat until your insurance gives you the go ahead. (That is how we do it in aviation.)
Frankly, a captain would save you money by teaching you how to run the boat, repair the boat, and prevent you from tearing up the boat.

I would guess a captain for 6 months will give you amazing information on anchoring, navigation, diesels, sails, electronics, etc. He/she will save you thousands in maintenance alone. I don't know how much to pay them but guessing $4-6k/month. If you do pay them $36k, that is very cheap compared to the cost of boat. They will definitely save you that much and more.

Going the USSailing, ASA, USCG, or MCA? route can cost with travel, bareboat charter, and certifications can cost $10k-20k or more depending upon vessel rented.
A good captain is worth their weight in gold when learning how to run a boat.

SailingChiro, that is GREAT advice! Thank you for taking the time to share your invaluable experience with us! Your mentioning having the skipper helps save on maintenance cost and help educate about the systems of the boat is the first time we have heard this and it totally makes sense because that is going to be where a lot of the learning curve and expense it. Again, thank you for sharing your experience. We really appreciate it! Happy sailing!

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Originally Posted by valhalla360

Your comment #12 and the prior #11 both implied that liability only is an option.

As the OP is doing something completely new to them...clarifying what is obvious to those familiar with cruising boat insurance is very much a good thing to point out as your comment could easily be taken that liability only is a good option....

Unless the OP is very wealthy and could walk away from a total loss with nothing more than a shrug of the shoulders, it's a horrible option.

Vahalla360, thanks for posting and for your concern. We are not rich but have invested well and if we had a total loss on the boat, we could survive it and go back to work as we are age 50 and 56 right now. Not something I would want to do, but we could. I am curious what the odds are of a worst-case total loss scenario, but OUCH if it happens to you. Anyway, we only have one life to live and I really want to LIVE these last ten or twenty "go go" years before we get to the "so go" and "no go" ones. Hope to see you out there. Happy sailing!

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Originally Posted by valhalla360

While nice to pick up some info...Keep in mind for every great story like this...there are dozens of broken dreams...they just don't typically host youtube channels about it.

Thanks for commenting. My wife and I are really good at learning new things and have a teachable heart. In fact, we enjoy it. I only have one life to live and at age 56 if I am going to do this, I need to make it happen and in the past, we have not let anything get in our way once we've made up our mind. There has been a lot of helpful information which will help better ensure our success. Happy sailing!

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Originally Posted by blubaju

used boat in Greece - ask the broker if there is a chance to take over the insurance from the former owner.


And PLEASE give us a hint about your citizenship, what flag you want to fly and where you want to sail.


As you start in Greece, is it a private yacht or company owned - makes a difference on Taxes and VAT.



In most Europeans countries you need a driving license for yachts, either form your country of citizenship, residence or where you are sailing. Last point is tricky, example: a German sailor with a Croation license is NOT entitled to sail in Italy, but he is allowed to sail in Croatia. In Croatia TWO people on board must have a radio license!



International waters you do not need a license, who is entitled to control you there? nobody, but maybe your insurance wants kind of proof of your knowledge.



Leaving the Med I was never asked about a sailing license last 30 years, but about my RADIO licence and liability insurance and in some countries it is mandatory to run an AIS



Greece in particular is tricky with special, almost yearly changing taxes that apply to yacht owners, just now, bcs of declining Corona tourism some laws are changed again, inform yourself well!


If you really have no idea about sailing, I can not really believe it, hire a skipper for training with your own yacht, he will be liable for accidents!


With insurance it helps sometimes a lot if you are a member of a yacht club, they often have kind of agreements in your favor. For me it is 10% and I was never asked a survey, though it is one of the bigger well known companies. Yacht clubs might be an expensive social affair or as in my case, a sport club not even owning a club house. My membership is cheaper than what I save on the insurance! Your choice.


Fair Winds & Following Seas
and may your dreams become true ;-)

Blubaju, thank you for your post with very helpful information! We will definitely use a Greek lawyer should we purchase the boat in Greece and we should find out today : ). Well said with the advice which we will follow! Happy sailing : )

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Originally Posted by Mike Banks

I can only suggest you nominate someone else as ship's master until you have that certificate--and while at it, sail under that master until you know what you are doing.

There must be plenty of able young sailors, some with a girl, only too happy to teach you to sail until you know what you are doing, and the more crew the better to begin with.

Great advice Mike Banks! Thanks for taking the time to comment. Happy sailing!

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Originally Posted by JPA Cate

It is with some hesitation that I have decided to post this here, but I think the timing is very poor for someone to try buying a boat outside their own area. Period. It is because the coronavirus pandemic is still ramping up in many places in the world. Realistically, I think travel restrictions will be in place for 1 to 3 years--and then there will be a new normal. So that's the first reason the timing is wrong.

The second one is that while it is theoretically possible to follow your plan, as others here have pointed out, there are also many possible failure modes, including one or both of you catching and dying of the virus. You can learn the basics of sailing in a short while, but learning to sail well is a different kettle of fish. You need to understand ship to shore radio practice; you will have to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of Colregs; boats are different to drive (as in docking, undocking, maintaining a straight course) because they are affected by wind (and that Lagoon has a huge lot of windage) and the tidal flows of the water. It is not like buying a car or SUV and driving somewhere on the highway. Without sea time, you do not have a clue how it will affect you. Some people (a minority) get sea sick and don't ever get over it. Being seasick will test your perseverance, and it happens to all of us some time or other. It took me about 10 years to find something that helps me with it.

Never having lived with a boat, you really have no idea how much time you will spend maintaining it. And, if you do not have the skills to tackle the jobs yourselves, you will spend mega bucks waiting on others to do the job, you can get stuck in countries because hurricane season has begun and you can't leave, and the boat's still not right.

But for now, please understand, many places are simply closed to people not of their own nation. You won't be going anywhere.

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The advice you received early on, to move near the water, rent a tiny studio apartment, get involved with a club that gives classes and has a variety of boats to sail would be a far more conservative way of approaching what you want to do. Your problem is exactly what you said, you are realizing what you don't know. A year or two spent now, learning the ropes, sailing on other people's boats helping them out at haulout time (as volunteer race crew, 'cause that's how you'll learn about sail trim), each of you on different OPBs, so you learn separately and combine your knowledge later. After 2 years, you will have very different ideas about what you want to sail on, and how you want to sail her, including how much is too much bottom for the two of you to sand, for the next few years.

Your present plan is very high risk, both fiinancially, and physically. The ocean is not as user friendly as land, for humans: we can drown easily. We cannot always avoid bad weather, and we have to help the boat survive bad weather so that we do, too. I think you would be wise to back out of this sale, and get out on the water, get your training, learn the homework stuff you can learn ahead of time. I realize you are feeling the pressure of advancing years, but truly, it will be time well spent.

In the mean time, you might start a thread here about buying boats out of charter, enquire about costs to bring such boats back up to snuff. A day charter will allow you to experience how a brand name boat sails. Your racing experience will teach you to appreciate sailing close to the wind, sailing and tacking angles, and a little about sailing in vigorous weather, if you've picked a good place to learn. You'll pick the timing and location for certifications. Heed the warning above, I believe I've heard about Greece requiring them for sailing, too.

Apologies if reading this has discouraged you, but I hope it doesn't. I hope it encourages you to approach your goals with wide open eyes, not hiding from uncomfortable realities.

Ann

Hi JPA Cate. Thank you for your email with concern for our health and safety, especially in these pandemic times. I see your point regarding the coronavirus, but arguably living on a boat away from others is safer than not, right? We are currently living in China and are ready to leave and we will definitely go back to the US if we don't get the boat in Greece. We should hear today so please keep your fingers crossed for us : ). Having moved all over the world because of international education, we are naturally risk takers and so far it has paid off for us; however, not without incident which makes it all the more interesting. We are looking forward to this next adventure and hope to see you out on the water. Happy sailing!

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Originally Posted by Tingum

STOP! I see a bad moon arising! Charter first! Charter again! Learn to sail! How do you know you will even like it? Armchair dreams do not come with full gales, seasickness, mechanical breakdowns and a hysterical spouse!

Tingum, thanks for taking the time to comment and for passing on your wisdom : ) We really appreciate it!

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Originally Posted by skipmac

Oh please, forgive Phil. He is a nice enough guy when you get to know him, even with all his faults.

Reading all your comments and replies I think you do have a pretty good grasp of what's required and the potential risks and liabilities. In Phil's (Boatman) defense I cannot count the number of posts from new boaters that with some version of: have never been on a boat at all, saw a sailing movie (usually Captain Ron), have some very minimal amount of money, want to buy a boat worth many times their budget and leave a month later so sail around the world.

You on the other hand seem to understand the magnitude of the undertaking and have started researching carefully how to develop and execute a plan. Your background as teachers is showing. Also the fact that you could move to a distant and very different country to work indicates you have a sense of adventure and and appreciation of travel and adventure that are, I think, key to enjoying cruising.

All the best of luck but doesn't appear to me that you will need it.

Skipmac, your post warmed our heart and yes Phill is a good guy and responded again with heartfelt experience advice. What we have learned from all of you is invaluable and we are so grateful to be a part of this community. Hope to see you out of the water. Happy sailing!