Couple with No Sailing Experience Buying Catamaran and In Need of Insurance Advice

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by alctel

When I got my boat (with no experience) I could get it insured but wasn't allowed to take it out of the marina without a licensed captain until I got some lessons.

I took a week long sailing course, and then had a couple of sessions of private docking instruction on my boat and that was enough to get the restriction lifted.

That was for a 15,000 CAD boat though, I imagine the burden of proof would be a lot higher on a big cat (that's a lot of boat!)

As someone else said, maybe rent a bunch of boats first to find out if you like sailing, and if you do, then what you are looking for in a boat.

Thank you for comment along with advice. We are taking in all of these heartfelt opinions and will make a decision based on the weight of the evidence.

[sailingchiro]

If there is a mortgage, doubt if bank will allow liability only insurance. That would be a huge loss with liability insurance. Hire a captain and get good insurance. Let the captain take the responsibility while you learn.

I am with most others. Learn your mistakes on a smaller boat for a couple of years with certifications. Do some bareboats. This kind of commitment can put undue strain on any relationship.

My wife has no desire to sail over 500 miles open water. She also doesn't want to spend years on a boat. We bought a house near a beach and smaller (cheaper) boat for weeks to a month travels staying near land.

Everything looks better in front of youtube. Cleaning out the head while the fuel filters are clogging again with 10 foot waves 3 second duration, heading into 30-40 knot gale with sick crew will strain any relationship. Period.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by zstine

Forget about insurance for a moment. I believe Greece has specific licenses that the country requires like a drivers license here in the states. I don't know the specifics (The EU was talking about a standard boat license but not sure if that happened). Anyway, if you intend to sail your boat from Greece, you better learn what their laws are.

Here in the USA, most states require you to pass some sort of boating safety course typically put on by the coast guard auxiliary.

You need an FCC ship station license and radio operator assuming you are American.

Seems like you have the cart before the horse to buy a vehicle that you can't operate legally or safely any time soon. A 45ft Cat is like a Semi-truck compared to a car. Do you really want to learn to drive in a large advanced vehicle, vice starting with the car equivalent? Please realize you are putting other people and property at risk. Perhaps get the experience, certifications/training, then buy a boat... maybe do a few charters first..

Thank you for taking the time to post with your advice. If we operate the boat in the Mediterranean, we will be required to have an ICC license which is similar to a bareboat license. Technically, we are not lawfully required to have insurance to operate a boat, except where required as in a marina; however, I would never put myself, property, and others at risk without the proper certifications and experience. From what I have heard so far, being insured can't keep you from doing stupid stuff with a boat, only experience, and expertise can and that is what we look to have with the help of a skipper probably to teach us on our boat. We are slowly learning and your post has certainly helped. Thanks again!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by SV Blown Away

Possibly if finding insurance rates ridiculous and after being extremely confident after all of that, could go uninsured for a year until we qualify for more reasonable insurance and we have a little cash buffer in case something happens. I'm sensing the insurance business is quite a racket. If we really don't like the boating life then we will just sell the boat, but hopefully, that will not happen. Thanks again and please let us know if you have any more suggestions : ).

Sorry if this comes across harsh but it's a lot easier to back out now rather than later...

You just added a few more red flags.

Going uninsured particularly on a newer boat is a huge risk and complete losses are not nearly as uncommon as you think. I've seen 3 different boats still tied up in their slips...sitting on the bottom, so it doesn't take a hurricane or extreme conditions. Liability only works if you pick up an old boat for $5k.

Also, first purchase, expect to take a loss if you sell and expect it to take a long time to sell unless you slash the price heavily which makes for a bigger loss. Expect to incur significant ongoing monthly costs while waiting for it to sell. Boats aren't like houses which go up in value year after year.

All this while there are huge issues getting to and from the boat and many services not available. I'm moving into the camp that suggests backing out if you have the ability. Odds of things going pear shaped are really high given the info you have provided and the current situation. Unfortunately, reading between the lines on your responses...you appear to be in the honeymoon phase and are heavily focused on the positive responses.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by SV Blown Away

Thank you for taking the time to post with your advice. If we operate the boat in the Mediterranean, we will be required to have an ICC license which is similar to a bareboat license. Technically, we are not lawfully required to have insurance to operate a boat, except where required as in a marina;

You're wrong about not having to insure the vessel in EU waters. For all practical purposes it is mandatory. In Greece, where you will presumably be starting off, every harbor master will demand proof of insurance, and you will have to check in with the harbor masters at every new island you visit to have your transit log stamped. The idea that you can cruise the Med without ever having to go into a harbor or marina is utter nonsense. Sooner than later you will be required to show proof of insurance.

Highly unlikely any European insurance broker will offer coverage for your vessel, as presumably being an American, you will have her US flagged. Your only option will be to find a US broker who is willing to insure you for Med sailing with no experience. That's a tough one. Liability only, maybe.

May I ask a personal question? How old are you guys? You say you're retiring, but I get the sense from your posts that you're pretty young.

[snort]

All I can think of to say is, "That's one helluva first boat!"

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by SV Blown Away

Sir, with no disrespect, this was my first ever (compared to your 25,000) and honestly, I needed to read them all in order to give intelligent responses. Not mention I live in China, I work and the thread was only about 12 hours old. How about some patience, a little grace, and saying something helpful instead of just a put-down?

No Offense meant and not really a Put Down.. more a question as to whether yours was a genuine post or yet another Troll from Sailing Anarchy or another Forum.
You would be amazed how many single posters suddenly appear and then are never seen again.
I was biding my time to see if this was yet another and, after 45 answers thought I would see if a 'Dig' would raise signs of life as we know it..
After 10yrs of responding to such Threads one does become cynical.

[boatman61]

Regarding Insurance I would suggest a minimum of Liability Insurance.. if the worst comes to the worst and you ram someone while dragging anchor or get hit by someone else it helps to have someone who knows the ropes in your corner. Also, dinghying back and forth with fuel to the boat gets old pretty fast and if anything happens going to or leaving the fuel dock your screwed.
The benefits far outweigh the relatively small fee.
If you do get the Lagoon I would suggest the first few days with the skipper of your choice be both you and your wife (if possible) getting competent and comfortable operating the boat under power before thinking about the sails.
Roomy or half empty anchorages are very few and far between during the season in the Med and with 26 odd feet beam learning to judge your distances and control the condo under power in windy conditions is vital.
Your greatest challenges will come doing Med Moorings and in crowded anchorages when under power.. the good thing however is with two engines its much much easier than a monohull and with a bit of practice you'll be able to turn on a dime and look dead cool.
You should with practice be able to walk your 45ft boat in sideways onto a quayside into a 50ft gap.. not unknown when going to refuel.

Another thing about Insurance is.. what are your plans.???
Staying in the Med.. try Pantaenius UK or ask the broker for some advice on local companies.
Certificates..
https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-adv...ng-an-icc.aspx

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by SuW

Personally, I'd say wait a couple of years.

Move to a coastal town with a good all season boating community, rent a tiny apartment and join a yacht club to learn the ropes. Take some courses. (If you're in the USA, I'd say San Diego or Annapolis, but there are other places.)
Reasons?
1) The tiny apartment will be bigger than your future boat. If you only go shopping once or twice a month, you might be simulating cruising.
2) You might decide you don't like sailing, boating, or get seasick.
3) The coronavirus pandemic may mean that in practical terms sailboat cruising of the world will be a long time coming back.
4) Start small, buy something cheap, learn how to look after it and yourselves.

Think about what would happen to you, in this situation:
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...the-hurricanes

Thanks for taking the time to give us your opinion! We really appreciate it!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by patrickbarbary

For insurance purpose but for your safety first, I would join an intensive 2 or 3 weeks captain license class. The ocean must be respected, it can kill you.

Great advice that we will follow! Thank you!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by skipmac

This happened to a relative. He bought a 38' sailboat as his first boat ever. He did have some limited experience on charters (I think with a captain). His insurance would not cover him unless he was with a licensed captain. After six months or so the captain signed off and he was free to go out on his own.

Great post. Thank you. Where there is a will, there is a way!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by skipmac

My first thought, if the OP has never sailed nor owned any boat before I highly recommend at least one charter in a similar boat before shelling out six figures for a boat. I know people that found out they were terminally sea sick and couldn't leave the dock without getting deathly ill. Some just plain don't like it.

The reality can be very different than what you see in the movies. Try before you buy,

Thanks for your advice. Point well taken : ). We have done a little sailing and not had a problem with seasickness. My wife's brother has a Corsair trimaran and we've spent some good days on it.

[SV Blown Away]

Thank you for the contact information. We will definitely get in touch with them! : )

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by Bamboo1

I am retired from the insurance industry, but was a yacht underwriter for a syndicate in Lloyd's. Without some basic information as previously explained, it's not easy to help.
As me and my wife did, everyone has to start somewhere and firstly let me welcome you to a truly amazing community.
The yacht insurance market has lost a huge amount of money over recent years and is currently in turmoil, underwriters are running scared and sticking to conventional business wherever possible. That said you should be able to find a solution to your question. Firstly I would suggest finding a broker that specialises in yacht insurance and one that is not tied to a single company. He will then be able to ask exactly what specific underwriters require in order to offer you cover.
My opinion is that a recognised qualification similar to the RYA coastal skipper, both the practical and navigation should be the absolute minimum. Preferably yacht master if the two of you intend to sail the world. A radio license is a must and I would also suggest the STCW95. Limiting your early navigation and hiring a captain in the early stages is also a must. It would also be a good idea to keep a comprehensive log of all your sailing experience.
I am sure I speak for every yacht owner when I say the exams do not teach you how to own and maintain a yacht. Again, electrical and mechanical courses are available to give you a basic knowledge, but we all learn from experience and by talking.
I hope you find my comments useful and understand the training will take time, but it will all be worth it in the long run.
Best regards and good luck,
John

Hi John. We value all of your encouragement and appreciate your sharing your experience with us and will follow all of your wise advice. Thanks again and happy sailing.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by Wallaby

Cap'n Jimbo gave you the best advice you can get.

1. Get out of the deal asap.
2. Find out what seasickness is like (kills sailing for a lot of people).

3. Go sail on someone else's boat first. If you want the fast track, not just how to sail, but how to handle the situations that arise every so often, get a ride on an ocean racer, assuming you can find one to take you. Somewhat slower, crew on a cruising boat. Taking a class does NOT give you experience, which is vital because when SHTF, those courses you took will be almost useless.
4. Once you know what you are doing, charter a boat of the type you want to buy.
5. when buying be careful of ex-charter boats unless you know how to fix things and have money for repairs.

Wallaby, thank you for your advice and for caring enough to comment. All is well taken! Happy sailing!