advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

[skipmac]

I agree with others that you do indeed seem to be well qualified but you point out that a lot of it is class based and theoretical more than hands on.

Also I completely relate to your reluctance to crew having had a previous bad experience. Have to say that I am frequently astonished and dismayed at the number of women that report such in all walks of life. However there are plenty of good sailors out there. If you feel that you really need that little bit of hands on boating to boost your self confidence to the level that makes you comfortable then it might be worth trying again to crew on an ocean passage. Just very, very carefully vet the situation before committing including meeting the captain and crew before departure. Not to mention there are more and more women sailing and you should be able to find at least a mixed crew. Often couples look for a third hand for a passage which should add some level of comfort.

[Kelkara]

I'm hesitant to post here, because you already seem to know far more about sailing and boats than I do.

What no one has addressed yet is this:

Originally Posted by wolfgal

i really crave English-speaking friends more and more: for music culture, for humour (see the "u" in there?), for the way anglo-saxons connect (which different to how the french connect). the thing is, i'm still a bit france bound...

When you say "a bit France bound", do you literally mean "a bit", or is that the classic English understatement, and you really mean you are nailed down to Gallic soil? If only "a bit", it sounds like you might appreciate a spell back in Blighty. Paris is closer to London than it is to Marseilles so not a much more arduous a journey from the south of England than the south of France.

The flaw with this plan is of course brexit and covid. You may not want to lose EU residency, and although we are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, we don't actually know how post-covid travel will look. So maybe look for a temporary situation this summer until we have a better idea where things are going.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

I'm hesitant to post here, because you already seem to know far more about sailing and boats than I do.

What no one has addressed yet is this:


When you say "a bit France bound", do you literally mean "a bit", or is that the classic English understatement, and you really mean you are nailed down to Gallic soil? If only "a bit", it sounds like you might appreciate a spell back in Blighty. Paris is closer to London than it is to Marseilles so not a much more arduous a journey from the south of England than the south of France.

The flaw with this plan is of course brexit and covid. You may not want to lose EU residency, and although we are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, we don't actually know how post-covid travel will look. So maybe look for a temporary situation this summer until we have a better idea where things are going.

The lady is American with French children hence I believe the reluctance to lose French connections.

[donradcliffe]

When you imagine yourself living your dreams, what are they? Do you see yourself adventuring to new places, new cultures, and experiencing the beauty of the sea and islands ALONE? Do you see yourself 'in charge', or happier in a secondary role letting someone you trust deal with the critical decisions (note that I did not give the option of an equal partnership, because one person really needs to be in charge in a crisis)? I know successful women sailors in all three roles, but the preparations for each are quite different.

As far as bad experiences with men as crew goes, get out of France. One of my best friends is French and his attitude toward women is "if you ask 100 women every day to go to bed with you that night, all you need is a 1% success rate". I do have to warn you that attractive women face more challenges, especially visiting some male dominated cultures. I met a Bo Derek lookalike whose boyfriend was later murdered in the Marquesas by a local who was consumed by his fantasies.

I agree with Jim that Rallies offer a false sense of security. I also know that Jim and Anne continue to cruise because they can share their wonderful experiences.

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I agree with Jim that Rallies offer a false sense of security. I also know that Jim and Anne continue to cruise because they can share their wonderful experiences.

It depends how you tick. Some people like the intangible moral support when trying something new, other people prefer to look stupid alone and to make their mistakes at their own pace.

I'm one of the latter, so rallies aren't my thing. However they definitely serve a very good purpose and I'm happy they exist to make it easier for others.

[wolfgal]

Sooooo much to respond to! in an attempt to gain more clarity, i'm going to be somewhat brief. may i just say that each of your comments have been so helpful! i've been talking to my sis and a girlfriend about what to do (in my over-think-it way - enough to drive any non-sailor nuts!); and well my sis is on the other side of the planet and cannot imagine wanting to live aboard a boat. and my girlfriend (not too far away) was on a boat once and cannot tell me if it was a sailboat or a motorboat... this community not only "gets it" but can see how putting the pieces together is not always an easy feat. thanks so much!

Ann, yes, much of the reason for the boat is about rebuilding my self-confidence. and yes, i've got some work to do. after three decades here, i score low! just staying positive during all these isolating lockdowns has been a feat in itself. the good news is that i'm finally in line for the vaccine. am so thankful, especially since i don't want to transmit it to an elderly person in a store when i reach for that thing on the top shelf for him/her! people have pulled together in many communities all over, but that hasn't been my experience here.

Mike, leave it to you to ask that outside-of-the-box question! ok, so the thing i want more than anything is constructive and meaningful interaction with other humans (as in, to meet nice folks like you and others among the CF tribe). yes, i need the wind and the waves and even the storms, but the interactions, even the fleetingly transient ones, this is at the core, driving my quest.

Jim, you put your finger on it: france is complicated and cruel. yes, it is cruel. and Tasmania sounds quite wonderful and would surely do the trick. that said, i am still a bit france-bound. the problem with wanting a boat and being a bit france-bound is that finding a spot here is next to impossible: you sign up, pay in, wait five years, and when your number pops up, you must already own your boat, insured, etc. (you cannot pay up, run and buy one and pull in a few a few weeks time). and quite frankly, with this covid year, i feel like i've been doing time here...

Kelkara, your question falls in about now: geez, if i was only a brit! i could cross the channel and hang out with smiley, fun folks who do not complain all the time and who can also tell really and truly funny jokes! so, france-bound, what does it mean? well, basically that i need to get to paris for a two weeks here and there, every so often. i love my kids to the moon and back and am not quite ready to cut the umbilical cord. they are starting uni, so are not quite out the door yet either. i see that Boatie summed it up.

Muttnik, ahah! i did not know about this UK based delivery service. This is worth looking into! i'm bilingual and hold a couple of passports, so this could be a plus if the delivery is out of france, as well. thanks sooooo much! yes, i got so spooked by crewing. i was still married when it happened, so was completely flabbergasted, at loss, so unused to getting pushed around. i know i can shake it, have re-learned how to be on my guard since then. it is just taking a bit more courage than i had previously thought. this could be a good solution.

El Pinuino, chotu, John Ghurt: you guys are super sweet, but it is Skipmac's assessment that is correct: my experience is in theory, very little hands-on, so little that i dare say that i've forgotten much of it. maybe you are right though and it is just a matter of giving it a go in baby steps: yes, i'm open to this. i'm just not sure if i want to do it in france... (so complicated here to get anything done, need a break).

and yes, Manateeman is correct: i am a prudent gal and do not want to sell up, buy a boat, sail off, hit a rock and abandon it in the middle of nowhere (hoping it will sink)... only to make headline news! although not that often, these things do happen.

Littlewing, ok, not everything happened in a few months. the unhitching took a while very peacefully but it still runs a person ragged,. the selling of my house hasn't happened yet (i accepted an offer. all said and done it will take about three to four months). and this july i've committed to replacing a hot water heater and finishing cleaning diesel bugs from fuel tanks (cannot resist learning about how to change a hot water heater!). then spending holidays helping kids choose what they want to keep here (this is the hard part!), and september/october... clearing out... after that, well, i'm not sure yet. i also need to do some reinvesting (grief). and figure out if a bolthole is desirable or just a cellar; if a boat is the best next step or a transatlantic.

i've always wanted to do the transatlantic. always. so maybe doing this (perhaps Muttnik's suggestion) would help me get experience, confidence and more clarity about it all.

donradcliffe, you make a very good point there. yes, i've got what men consider an attractive body, was an athlete long ago..., but i'm much older and not a smidgen as pretty as that girl who has the youtube channel called white spot, untie the lines. and, if you watch her, she is always meeting up with the other boat, another couple..., and her boat being named Karl is for a reason too. gals have to think about these things, definitely. it's great that the guys on CF realise how it can a bit more complicated for women to get out there. i'm thankful we can be so cards-up about it here.

so... if i imagine myself out there... well, i always see myself helping people when something doesn't work. i want to be that gal who pulls out the flex-head spanner! geez, i really like this interaction, these ways that folks look out for one another. i also love long passages... once i get over the initial seasickness (on small boats that bob, i have gotten quite sick), i tend to want to continue sailing, not stop. why arrive somewhere at all? no, i'm not driven by the need to find sandy beach or tasting different dishes, etc. though, for me, talking to women at local vegetable markets would be well worth it. (may covid pass!)

could i sail alone with a boat with a male name? yes, perhaps, for a while but i do hope to find myself in a two-boat pickle with someone, eventually. i'm just not willing to forgo the learning curve and rely on someone else in all cases, and not because i'm headstrong or dominant, but rather to prove to myself that i can. i have no issues with being first mate instead of captain, as long as the respect is there. and as far as crisis goes, this is usually when i shine. Manateeman said i need to look into firefighting and more safety at sea, and it is very good advice since i already like this stuff!

once again, a huge thanks to each of you for spending this moment with me. i've been overthinking myself into total paralysis, for such a while. really needed to get some feedback, some clarity. i really appreciate it!

wolfie

[ranger58sb]

WG, I can't really offer much in the way of advice, especially about dealing with the boat versus the marina situation in France...

But I thought useful to reiterate what some others have said: You are way (WAY!) more qualified than many of the skippers and crew I've run across... so I join others in saying "get on with it, Gal, trust yourself!"

To me, that doesn't mean buy a rusty old scow and do a transatlantic crossing right away... but once you solve the "get a boat" problem it could be relatively easy to ease yourself into a higher level of confidence. Short trip, return. Repeat a lot. Extend the range gradually, Repeat a lot. When you're ready, try a longer trip, maybe with friendly crew, whatever. All of a sudden, you'll discover you're been comfortable for a long time.

Good luck! -Chris

[CruiseN]

I like lines. They rope you in when ashore.

Something to do such as splicing, learning knots..
Keeps me entertained. Plus feeling is familiar and hence quicker with precise when required.

Enjoy sir

[Joh.Ghurt]

Wolfie,

going by your last post, crewing long term doesn't sound right for you. You need to put on the big-girl pants and go sailing on your own. Start in small steps and you'll raise to the challenge.

If you want to do the Atlantic, check for someone needing a 3rd crew on the ARC in November. That will strike this off your bucket-list and you'll then know you can do it on your own whenever you like.

You're concerns about ending alone on a boat are totally unfounded if you aren't the type to end up alone in a flat in the middle of Paris either.

[johnn33]

I do hope you will have a great time. Do talk to these people
https://www.pydww.co.uk/crewing-with-pyd/
and

https://www.hambleyacht.net/
I would save the boat purchase budget until you have made friends who enjoy the offshore world, and hear their take on life, which will I am sure give you new ideas.

John

[Clivevon]

Hi. I love that Nike slogan, don't you? Just do it...
Stop thinking. Start doing.
Not sure how you can boatsit a boat on the hard anyway. You certainly cannot sleep on board when ashore in my marina. Absolutely not allowed.

[Clivevon]

I had a crew once who had done the ARC - but not much else. Barely knew how to put a rope on a cleat - in fact he didnt really know how to do that right, every time. It was all a bit haphazard. Which makes sense when you realise he had undocked once, sailed 3000 miles & docked once. Which is not what I do & not what you would be doing around Brittany.
If you lack confidence, sail in the Mediterranean first - no tides. Brittany has tides - boy, does it have tides - & rocks. Not the best kindergarten playground. So if sailing around Brittany you must definitely upgrade your RYA Day Skipper Practical to tidal. Once you have learned that (not difficult) you will be good to go. Small steps, no problem. A 5 mile voyage to a new port in tidal conditions is not something to be ashamed of. Then just go on from there.
Do they do fractional boat ownership in France. Why not buy a share in a boat, as part of a syndicate, rather than a whole boat. I have used Yacht Fractions in UK in the past - very helpful.
But your core problem as I see it is this: who do you sail with? who crews if you are skipper? the answer to that is to join a club & crew for others to gain low cost experience - or maybe as someone suggested, try the delivery crew route.
Good luck anyway.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

ok guys, please be nice...

it feels like it has taken me a very painful forever to untangle from french lubberlife and to get sailing..., but i'm just about there. i got unhitched; my very cumbersome (expensive to keep) family home is no longer going to keep me here (i accepted an offer); my kids are just about grown (i just need to pay and pop into paris every so often); and i've no folks to look after, etc. and yes, i've saved every single penny and am super fugal by nature, proud of it! i should be fine as a low-to-medium budget cruiser.

and yet, now that things are really finally moving forward, i am taking another look at that "big plan" i've had all these years: get my boat, live aboard and nurture that adventurous side of me (the one that got gobsmacked my lubberlife). cause believe me folks, i've got some living to do!


ok, so, even though, over the years (the past 5 to 6 years), i've done what i could with the opportunities i found, i still don't feel like i am ready to be a skipper, to navigate. i'm a bit of a tech dropout and always feel like a beginner out there. i'm also a lousy cook, so that doesn't help much.

my experience/training includes:
-engine maintenance class (theorietical) with Power Squadrans
-electric systems class (theoretical) with Power Squadrans
-RYA competent crew
-RYA Dayskipper (non-tidal)
-RYA Marine Radio
-RYA Navigation and Seamanship
-French coastal permit
-French river permit (all european canals and rivers)
-Safety at sea with chuck Hawley (jump in pool and all)
-CPR with American Heart Association
-sail trim class
-deliveries (North Sea to bay of Biscay on a 33'; Valencia to Marseille on a 47')
-hobbie cat week in normandy with kids at the club
-some coastal sailing normandy with club, and in San Francisco Bay with friends, off the coast of charleston SC, greece, corsica.
-a tad of racing here and there (not enough to really get the hang of it)
-and yes, i sailed a felucca down the Nile myself, long ago in my adventure-girl days; learned to scuba dive then too, was a fantastic swimmer! much more then now...
-shall i also tell that i was first mate growing up on my father's motorboat...?

yet, most of my time on sailboats actually has been on the hard fixing stuff, repairing stuff: engine work (filters, bad fuel, alternator belt...), varnishing and wood work, cleaning bilges!, changing hoses, butyl tape and epoxy and drills and saws and jubilee clips and anti-fouling and scrubbing hulls and... flaring copper. and yes, i have really and truly loved working on boats!

and i've spent soooooo much time studying boats! hours and hours and hours. boat porn is a thing!

so, what's the deal? i need confidence, more sailing/navigating experience, community, and, most of all, friends. i find that i do not really want to sail alone and like less and less to sail "in french". i really crave English-speaking friends more and more: for music culture, for humour (see the "u" in there?), for the way anglo-saxons connect (which different to how the french connect). the thing is, i'm still a bit france bound...

my options:

-i could go ahead and get the boat and a bolthole... was thinking about a 33' to 35'. there is a very nice overpriced boat that would do the trick. and i've searched high and low in metropolitan france and came up with Crozon, on the farthest tip of Brittany. there is a RYA centre nearby where i could do some refresher courses, get tuition on my own boat (no i'm not confident!!!), and begin bit by bit...

the thing is, the waiting list for just about any marina in france is five years... and i do not know if i will really like it there... perhaps it is too soon to get a place of some sort? (buying and selling property here is a huge ordeal. we don't "flip" houses here. taxes are prohibitive. so one must be sure)

-or i could accept an offer to boatsit for the next 18 months on a boat (on the hard). the owner cannot get there for 18 months and would like a caretaker, someone trustworthy who will also happily sand and varnish all the teak (i'll probably wind up anti-fouling too). this is down in the south of france, at an out of the way boatyard that i know well and really like. everyone works on their boats there, so there's some community. and i do enjoy the "rough life" there, pee jar and all.

as much as i'd like to go for the overpriced boat, my thought is to take up this second option, which would also allow me to come and go as i like during that time while i figure out the rest. more importantly, if i choose not to buy my own boat (yet), then could do the ARC and really get experience.

so, please tell me. does this sound like the very best way for a girl like me to get the experience i need? (and please don't suggest that i just sign up for lovesail or crewbay. please believe me when i say that lots of not-so-good things happen to females on boats. been there, done that, not twice )

who here has done the ARC and would tell me about their experience?

or perhaps shall i splurge on a John Neal or Mahina expeditions or John Kretchmer courses? or do i not need a higher skipper/seamanship level to do this?

any thoughtful suggestions are more than welcome!

thanks so much!

wolfie

Tech drop out? I'm a certified Luddite. A lousy cook? I've lived out of a microwave for twenty years, inexpererience as a skipper? Riley Whitlum ( of La Vagabonde fame) approached sailing for the first time with less knowledge than Homer Simpson at a ballet recital. You've got more bona fides than any so called newbie I've ever heard of so what the hell are you waiting for? Put it in gear and get going. In spite of all the new fangled gear out there to make our lives on the water easier, you already know that sailing is not rocket science - with a fat enough grant, I could probably teach a Chimpanzee how to do it .

[ChrisJHC]

An alternative to the delivery path (which is a good one if you can arrange it) is to book an offshore passage.
These are probably better done out of the UK than France.

For example, search for “yachtmaster ocean qualifying passage uk” and lots will come up.
The beauty of doing one of these is that you will have an instructor on board who can answer all your questions.

This will really put your theory into practice!

[donradcliffe]

https://www.amazon.com/Grace-Sea-Wom.../dp/0071435425