Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-06-2021, 10:27   #1
Registered User
 
wolfgal's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Boat: still sailing an armchair...
Posts: 733
Images: 1
advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

ok guys, please be nice...

it feels like it has taken me a very painful forever to untangle from french lubberlife and to get sailing..., but i'm just about there. i got unhitched; my very cumbersome (expensive to keep) family home is no longer going to keep me here (i accepted an offer); my kids are just about grown (i just need to pay and pop into paris every so often); and i've no folks to look after, etc. and yes, i've saved every single penny and am super fugal by nature, proud of it! i should be fine as a low-to-medium budget cruiser.

and yet, now that things are really finally moving forward, i am taking another look at that "big plan" i've had all these years: get my boat, live aboard and nurture that adventurous side of me (the one that got gobsmacked my lubberlife). cause believe me folks, i've got some living to do!


ok, so, even though, over the years (the past 5 to 6 years), i've done what i could with the opportunities i found, i still don't feel like i am ready to be a skipper, to navigate. i'm a bit of a tech dropout and always feel like a beginner out there. i'm also a lousy cook, so that doesn't help much.

my experience/training includes:
-engine maintenance class (theorietical) with Power Squadrans
-electric systems class (theoretical) with Power Squadrans
-RYA competent crew
-RYA Dayskipper (non-tidal)
-RYA Marine Radio
-RYA Navigation and Seamanship
-French coastal permit
-French river permit (all european canals and rivers)
-Safety at sea with chuck Hawley (jump in pool and all)
-CPR with American Heart Association
-sail trim class
-deliveries (North Sea to bay of Biscay on a 33'; Valencia to Marseille on a 47')
-hobbie cat week in normandy with kids at the club
-some coastal sailing normandy with club, and in San Francisco Bay with friends, off the coast of charleston SC, greece, corsica.
-a tad of racing here and there (not enough to really get the hang of it)
-and yes, i sailed a felucca down the Nile myself, long ago in my adventure-girl days; learned to scuba dive then too, was a fantastic swimmer! much more then now...
-shall i also tell that i was first mate growing up on my father's motorboat...?

yet, most of my time on sailboats actually has been on the hard fixing stuff, repairing stuff: engine work (filters, bad fuel, alternator belt...), varnishing and wood work, cleaning bilges!, changing hoses, butyl tape and epoxy and drills and saws and jubilee clips and anti-fouling and scrubbing hulls and... flaring copper. and yes, i have really and truly loved working on boats!

and i've spent soooooo much time studying boats! hours and hours and hours. boat porn is a thing!

so, what's the deal? i need confidence, more sailing/navigating experience, community, and, most of all, friends. i find that i do not really want to sail alone and like less and less to sail "in french". i really crave English-speaking friends more and more: for music culture, for humour (see the "u" in there?), for the way anglo-saxons connect (which different to how the french connect). the thing is, i'm still a bit france bound...

my options:

-i could go ahead and get the boat and a bolthole... was thinking about a 33' to 35'. there is a very nice overpriced boat that would do the trick. and i've searched high and low in metropolitan france and came up with Crozon, on the farthest tip of Brittany. there is a RYA centre nearby where i could do some refresher courses, get tuition on my own boat (no i'm not confident!!!), and begin bit by bit...

the thing is, the waiting list for just about any marina in france is five years... and i do not know if i will really like it there... perhaps it is too soon to get a place of some sort? (buying and selling property here is a huge ordeal. we don't "flip" houses here. taxes are prohibitive. so one must be sure)

-or i could accept an offer to boatsit for the next 18 months on a boat (on the hard). the owner cannot get there for 18 months and would like a caretaker, someone trustworthy who will also happily sand and varnish all the teak (i'll probably wind up anti-fouling too). this is down in the south of france, at an out of the way boatyard that i know well and really like. everyone works on their boats there, so there's some community. and i do enjoy the "rough life" there, pee jar and all.

as much as i'd like to go for the overpriced boat, my thought is to take up this second option, which would also allow me to come and go as i like during that time while i figure out the rest. more importantly, if i choose not to buy my own boat (yet), then could do the ARC and really get experience.

so, please tell me. does this sound like the very best way for a girl like me to get the experience i need? (and please don't suggest that i just sign up for lovesail or crewbay. please believe me when i say that lots of not-so-good things happen to females on boats. been there, done that, not twice )

who here has done the ARC and would tell me about their experience?

or perhaps shall i splurge on a John Neal or Mahina expeditions or John Kretchmer courses? or do i not need a higher skipper/seamanship level to do this?

any thoughtful suggestions are more than welcome!

thanks so much!

wolfie
__________________
“Though we travel the world over to find the beautiful, we must carry it with us, or we find it not.” Ralph Waldo Emerson
wolfgal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 18:10   #2
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 21,520
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

Hi, there, Wolfie,

Congratulations on earning your freedom!

So much will depend on how well you know yourself. I, too, suffer from lack of self-confidence, though i don't let it show much, around here. I think you should just go for it, because you already have good training. However, if, in your experience, you would gain more confidence from the next level up of skippering, then you should take the course(s). Everyone is different, and sometimes, credentials are useful. If it is an option, perhaps you could hire a skipper for personal training?

The thing is, if you suffer chronically from lack of self confidence, it is yourself you have to convince, and it can be such an uphill struggle. You'd have to set a personal goal, and meet it; and I think you've done that again and again. And you've already saved the bacon for skippers for whom you've crewed, so why lack the confidence? The real answers probably lie in your childhood and subsequent events, and will be singular to you.

So, I think you should just go for it, with the attitude that any landing you walk away from is a good one, and considering that you may be your harshest critic. And keep in mind about the rose garden--roses have thorns, but anyway, you weren't promised a rose garden. It's tough to be an orphan in a strange land. There are heaps of others who do not share your advantages of experience. This is probably an apocryphal story, but Sammy Davis, Jr. is reported to have said once upon a time, "You think YOU have strikes against you? I'm a one eyed, Black, Jew!" Perspective.

Just keep on truckin'. You can do this. And I wish you the supremely best of luck with it.

The deal is, you already have many more "qualifications" than many when they get their first boat. Now it remains for you to get up and select your boat and begin the next stage in your life. It's okay to feel unsure, even boys feel that, sometimes, but are less likely to admit it.

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 18:33   #3
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 8,767
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

That was lovely, Ann. Thanks so much for that.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 19:57   #4
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 10,846
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

Holy shyte! ... after reading your list of credentials, I realize how sorely under-qualified I am .

Kidding, of course. I understand (at least I think I do ). And I think Ann is right. The only person you have to convince is yourself.

I don't have anywhere near the experience of most here (most especially Ann). Heck, I'm quite honestly way less qualified that you already are. But one thing I would ask is:

What are you really trying to achieve?

Is sailing and cruising the end you seek? Or is it a means to an end? This is not a trick question. There's not a right answer, but it does shape how you approach cruising.

If cruising is the end, then Option A is your best choice. Get your boat and go now. You're more than ready, even if you don't believe it. Start small, and work up. You don't have to sail across the ocean right away. Sail to the next town, or better still, to a nearby anchorage. Then go further the next time.

But if cruising is a means to an end, you need to become clear what the end, or ends, really are; what is it that you truly seek? In this light, maybe your Option B is the better choice.


I will say, for me, knowing what I'd be doing for the next 18 months is unheard of. I honestly don't even know where I'll be sleeping over the coming six months (since I am still boatless due to Covid).

As you know, for me, cruising is merely a means to an end. Cruising allows me to live a certain life and lifestyle. But it's definitely not the only way, and I can easily see myself giving up the boating life all together if/when something better comes along.

So ... what is it you want?
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 21:52   #5
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 21,520
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

Mike, what wolfgal wants is indeed the crucial question. Thanks for asking it. Because it made me want to ask that old Tarot question, what blocks it? the it under discussion.....

We need to wait for wolfie to come back to us here.

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 22:05   #6
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 18,116
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

G'Day Wolfie,

That's a lot of data to absorb for us, but here are some thoughts that came into my mind whilst reading the post (in no particular order, like most of my thoughts):

1. As others have said, you certainly have way more experience and training than most folks setting out to buy their first boat, and IMO have no objective need for further training or nurturing prior to purchase. You seem to have some subjective reluctance to realize this and act on it... I'm not competent to comment on such subjects, but it sure is impeding your progress!

2.It isn't clear whether it is currently possible for you to leave France at this time, but it sure sounds like that would enable you to create an environment that you would fine supportive and fun. Like, if you came to Tasmania you would find a lot of new friends who spoke (more or less) English, who welcome newcomers, who are not prejudiced against female sailors, who admire folks (especially female) who do their own work and are willing to help out on OPBs... and there are some very nice boats to be had. And a wonderful lot of protected cruising grounds for honing your skills in settings of great beauty too. I'm quite sure there are many other locales with similar characteristics (and perhaps better wx!). France, while nurturing many great sailors and racers, seems to be overridden with rules and crowded waterways and marinas. Good place to get away from!

3. Unless sailing the boat is possible in the boatsit gig, it sounds like something that will only delay your progress to self assuredness... a kinda holding pattern that would not be so very beneficial to you. And 18 months is not an insignificant delay IMO.

4. If independent cruising is your goal, the ARC is an expensive lesson in not being independent. I'm not a rally fan at all, with the possible exception of those which bypass really obscure bureaucracies like some that go to Indonesia. Mostly they interfere with the learning of skills that independent cruising requires by bubble wrapping the sharp points and surrounding you with other insecure folks, all lead by the hand. For a fierce individualist like yourself, just the wrong way to go IMO.

5.Re your thoughts about not going solo: I do agree there, for while learning to solo sail is great training for cruising as a couple (and I did a lot of single hand sailing and racing in pre-cruising years), it is a lousy way to actually cruise for most folks, both in terms of safety and comfort as well as just simply enjoying new experiences with a friend. Sharing wonders is such a great feeling...

And how has it happened that in all your time in France you've not learned to cook? Doesn't that skill just ooze into you from simple exposure?

6. Finally, I don't think that you need Neal-type training just to start cruising yourself. While it might add to your skill set, it would also delay your making the leap into being your own person, in charge of your own boat on your own cruise... and that leap is what I think should be your next step.


I admire your drive, Wolfie, and have confidence that once you jump in you will find the water warm and the world beckoning.

Go, girl!

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, back in Port Cygnet once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2021, 02:35   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Westerly Oceanlord
Posts: 487
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

If you want to sail with english-speakers sign up as volunteer crew for a UK-based delivery company, e.g. PYD or even the infamous Reliance. Your qualifications will mean any skipper is going to pick you over unqualified crew or those who've just got dayskipper. British companies often have contracts with major French manufacturers: the last deliveries I did as mate were for new French boats out of France (headed to the caribbean and eastern med). If French law is anything like British, commercial operations (including commercial deliveries) are excluded from COVID restrictions.

Working as crew on an ocean passage is great way to build confidence: you get to be comfortable au grand large, be in charge of the boat as watch leader, yet have an experienced commercial skipper to ultimately take responsibility. You also get to talk boats for weeks on end and do a few of these and you may start to get more familiar with what you like and don't like before laying out the money for your own boat. That being said, if you're anything like I was, the amount of money you have to spend on a boat is maybe 1/20th of the value of what you'll be delivering.
muttnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2021, 03:16   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Boat in Puerto Lucia, Ecuador, Body in SE Australia, Heart in Patagonia....
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 6,365
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

Softly softly catchy monkey...
Quite a bit to digest at #1 but I'll do my best with it.
Right out of the gate I would suggest finding a boat in the 30ish foot range that you would consider 'going foreign' in.
Spend a few years around Brittanny getting to know her... and yourself.
Decide if she is the boat you want to cross oceans in.
If not, rinse and repeat...
My situation for what it is worth... (based at the time in SE Australia )
1969 bought a copy of 'Cruising under Sail' and decided I was going cruising in a Vertue.
1984 Bought a Vertue and decided I was sailing to Patagonia ( Hal Roth and Tilman to blame for that ). Spent next 10 years getting to know Bass Strait.
1994 decided I was never going to sail a Vertue to South America. Bought a Westerly Sealord in Thailand... sailed it to Bass Strait. Spent next 9 years there and Tasmania.
2003 .... departed Oz bound Chile.
You could condense the timeline but assorted life events got in my way.
No regrets .
A boat for the job? Starting again maybe a Westerly Discus.... google Bob Shepton Dodos Delight.
Hope there is something in here of value.
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2021, 03:59   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 5,020
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

Reading your post, I’m struck with one thought. Reality.

You have prepared and prepared and prepared, but now the time is here and the reality is setting in. That’s always the most nerve wracking moment in anything. I’m sure you even felt it selling your house.

I would suggest just doing it. Take the plunge. Find a boat you can resell if the life turns out not to be enjoyable to you.

But never, never fear the act of sailing (in decent weather).

There is nothing that can really go so wrong as to cause a complete disaster. You have soooo many documented qualifications.

Here’s what you need to be able to do:

1) get on/off the mooring ball or dock/quay. Get a mooring ball if available in your area. Way easier.

2) Choose a course to/from your destination and follow that course on your chart plotter

3) raise/unfurl the sails

4) trim to sails to work on the course you chose (or motor if it’s directly into the wind)

5) Drop sails and put them away when done

That’s it. It’s very, very easy for someone with all the experience you have to go coastal day sailing. All I did was read ONE BOOK before I bought my first small keel boat at the age of 20. Then I went out, got knocked down by wind, got stranded with a broken outboard, had a rudder break off because of corroded pintles. Not all at once, but over the first season. I’m sure your boat will be a lot better than my first boat. It’ll be easy.

The thing about sailing is it’s not hard to have enough skill to do it. You already have that skill. But it takes more than a lifetime to master it, if one can at all. So don’t worry about mastering it. It’ll never happen.

You’re more than experienced enough to go out there and have fun, which is what it’s all about.

You’re over thinking it, thanks to the internet. Trust me. I’ve been there. I’m always there. With lots of topics. This is one place you can just forget all the nervous nellies that posted online about all the tragedies that will happen if you set to sea without a yacht master unlimited oceans. It’s supposed to be fun. These nervous nellies take all the fun out of it because they can’t relax. And unfortunately, I think their alarmist posts have seeped into your brain. It’s hard enough to feel confident and able to sail (you obviously are able to) without these people and their “can’t do” attitudes.

I recall a thread I had on here a while back about ideas to move a mast for a 50ft catamaran. Soooo many people had the “can’t do” attitude. Hire a moving company. Hire a barge. Hire this. Hire that. You can’t possibly move a mast yourself. All over the thread.

I put together a little $200 trailer, plopped the 17 meter mast on it and towed the mast 160 km from the place I bought it to my boat. No problem. But the naysayers had me petrified. The same thing can happen even when you are just reading and not asking a question on here.

Don’t let that type of attitude often read online cloud your mind. You can EASILY do this. Easily. You are quite well prepared.
__________________
Epoxy can kill me like a kid smelling peanuts across the lunch room. Even the freshly machined dust from cured epoxy. Please don’t suggest using it.
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2021, 04:11   #10
Registered User
 
LittleWing77's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1,834
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

Hey Wolfie!

Congrats! That was a LOT to get through in a short number of months.

I would nix the caretaking thing. You have done enough boatwork to earn your place in heaven.

You might start looking for your boat, but you do know the ones you're interested in are not in France, so that means getting yourself to locales where those boats are.

I love the idea of crewing on the ARC. Get a transatlantic under your belt, get yourself some daily nav experience, and get you to the Caribbean. Then you might be able to continue to cruise with that boat for a bit or hop a flight to the US and do some in-person looks at the boat you want.

The only drawback is the ARC isn't until the Fall....!

Fair winds,
LittleWing77
LittleWing77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2021, 04:14   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 5,020
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

One more thing about navigating.

You mentioned you’re not feeling ready for that.

1) pick a destination

2) draw a straight line to that destination

3) check depths or other hazards along your straight line

4) add extra segments to the line that allow you to miss and areas that are too shallow, marked with danger, or are land.

5) Follow each segment on your chart plotter.

If you are referring to NavRules, they can indeed be complicated, but in practice, on the water, they come much more easily than on land because you have significant time to figure out your responsibilities under the rules. You see a boat and 10-20 minutes later you need to take action. Maybe. So you have ample time to even look up the rules.

You can definitely do this!

For friends, just ask people you know if they’d like to come sailing on such and such a day. I can’t, however, help you with community. I sail to get away from the community. Ha ha.
__________________
Epoxy can kill me like a kid smelling peanuts across the lunch room. Even the freshly machined dust from cured epoxy. Please don’t suggest using it.
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2021, 05:06   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Costa del Sol
Posts: 454
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

Wolfie,

you're overqualified and overthinking it.

If you dream of living the life of cruiser and have the time and means to do it,get a boat and move onto it. For the first summer, spend the time on anchor wherever you like and look for a place to spend the winter. If there are no good options in France, consider Spain for the winter season. A friend just recently checked and spending the winter for example in Almerimar isn't excessively expensive and you get spaces. Embrace the inner gypsy (not the part on the anchor winch) and go from month to month.

About your fears of not knowing enough, just do what all men do: Be confident in yourself and fix the damages afterwards. Just try to mess up in small doses, try to avoid catastrophes. You don't know enough about navigation? Just start doing it. First time your boat doesn't make any way because of a current, you'll learn about what's important with tides. I've been there diving to untangle my boat from moorings because I was too inept to keep clear of them. Some people in the marina had a lot of entertainment, but still they were helpful enough to helped and now I have yet another embarrassing story for long evenings. I doubt my collection of embarrassing stories will stop growing soon.

Also, don't listen too much to well and not so well meaning people. In the end it's your life and you should do what feels right.
Joh.Ghurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2021, 05:17   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Costa del Sol
Posts: 454
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
One more thing about navigating.

You mentioned you’re not feeling ready for that.
1) pick a destination
2) draw a straight line to that destination
3) check depths or other hazards along your straight line
4) add extra segments to the line that allow you to miss and areas that are too shallow, marked with danger, or are land.
5) Follow each segment on your chart plotter.
Two more steps to add:

3.5) Go on windy.com and check what the wind be along the line when you want to do it. If it's red consider discovering that nice bistro on the other side of the beach. If it's Blue, expect to motor. If you don't like the direction, restart the knitting project waiting to be finished.

4.5) If you're in a area with noticeable tides, check the expected currents. windy.com is great for this too. If they're faster in the wrong direction than your boat goes on a good day, consider making a stop and anchor for a very extended lunch and some fishing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
If you are referring to NavRules, they can indeed be complicated, but in practice, on the water, ...
A good approach is to stay away from things that wouldn't even scratch the paint when they run you over or you drive into them.
Joh.Ghurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2021, 05:20   #14
Registered User
 
wolfgal's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Boat: still sailing an armchair...
Posts: 733
Images: 1
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

such thoughtful and encouraging comments! thank you sooooo much!

ok, i don't know where to start really... BUT things are popping in my mind with your input.

thanks soooo much! am re-reading and thinking here...

wolfie
wolfgal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2021, 05:37   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Kennebunk ME
Boat: Owner built 60’ Aluminum Expedition Yacht.
Posts: 831
Re: advice: sailing/navigation experience and finding community

Hi. You have an excellent resume. RYA, Harley. Nice. Your concerns seem to center on navigation or your feelings about confidence in yourself. Given your training, and more importantly, your lack of a huge male ego, I know you will be fine...any boat...any ocean.
I see you as a very Prudent Mariner. Cannot give a higher compliment.
Practice your on paper navigation, rules of the road, lights etc.
Keep reading on safety at sea. You are a good swimmer, make sure you can get back on the boat by yourself...one handed. Cold water... at night.
You don’t mention firefighting. Good to work with real firefighters.
Same with medical. Helicopter rescue. Keep training.
Lot of nice aluminum 40’ boats in Holland. You can handle it...don’t buy too small.
AIS and good binoculars. You are not going to learn on the beach.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his manatee crew.
Manateeman is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Advice, enc, navigation, sail, sailing

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Couple with No Sailing Experience Buying Catamaran and In Need of Insurance Advice SV Blown Away Training, Licensing & Certification 190 18-11-2020 02:19
Need some honest advice from the Cruiser Community * Long Post* rfe3 General Sailing Forum 46 29-12-2019 05:09
Ipad navigation (google earth and navigation) Cpt Balu Navigation 2 11-03-2019 18:55
New to NOLA sailing community looking to expand my skills and live aboard soon. Dunedain Meets & Greets 3 09-01-2016 14:18
Looking for Sailing Community . . . and Opportunities Gypsywyld Meets & Greets 4 27-10-2010 20:05

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.