Lead Crystal Batteries in Australia

[SV.Louna]

I’m starting this thread on these batteries as I don’t believe they are near as good as they say they are. My previous battery banks were 2 banks of 4 T105 Trojan 6volts lead acid wet batteries. After many years these finally gave up the ghost and I started looking at the alternatives what to replace with.

Lead Crystal batteries had an identical size battery, physically and with amp hours within a few amps. The spiel from the sales rep made these sound fantastic. When I tried to do research, there was so little actual feed back on the forums, I assumed they were as good as the sales pitch says. So thousands of dollars later I had them fitted in the boat. All is going well. All the parameters on the Victron unit are set to match the information stamped on the side of the batteries and data sheet - voltage, temperature, etc..

One year later, when I was checking the batteries, as I do regularly, lo and behold, 2 of them are looking like footballs! The batteries had swollen so much, the had stuck together and needed a screwdriver to prise them apart! But phew, only 2 of them had swollen. I get straight in touch with the sales people/supplier who to say the least, we’re not impressed to hear from me. After much deliberation and myself paying for the Victron people to come and inspect all the battery settings, download all the graphs, etc. from the Victron unit, the supplier FaceTiming my electrician, they begrudgingly replaced the 2 batteries out of a bank of 8. They believed we were under charging the batteries as I was “only” charging at 100 amps. I was told by the supplier that a battery bank of this size needs to be charged at 200 amps continuously for X number of hours stepping down to 160 for X number of hours, etc.

The supplier suggested that the other batteries would also all fail now and there is no warranty on them even though they offer a full 3 year warranty. They didn’t feel they even needed to warranty the first 2. So in with the 2 new batteries. “Unfortunately” I could not set the battery charger at 200 amps as frankly I don’t know anyone who has a charger this big. But I did increase to 120amps as my maximum.

Sure enough, just one week later, the other 6 batteries had all swollen up, even though I was checking the settings and would even go as far as turning off the battery charger when I felt them getting hot. The supplier has left us high and dry claiming it’s the Victron electronics that are rubbish not his fantastic batteries made in China.

So buyer beware. Keep in mind that the charging parameters they expect are huge and that I don’t believe our battery bank is excessively big for a live aboard boat. We believe that because these batteries are continuously chasing more amps, even though they are full, the battery charger keeps pushing more power into them. Hence being they are swelling, getting hot and damaging the cells. The supplier will not honour their warranty as you will need to have, on a battery bank my size, a 200 amp charger that can push this in continuously for 5 or 6 hours.

So if you are considering Lead Crystal Batteries, I would strongly recommend you read my post, do some real research from people on the ground and not the sales pitch of the supplier. My wife found an article on Women the Sail/cruise (?) where they are travelling through the equator area running their engines and fried their Lead Crystal Batteries as well. There were other posts out there as well. They seem to be temperature sensitive in our opinion. I believe that other yacht owners are going to be tempted to give these a go and it’s going to potentially be disastrous without the know how of setting these up correctly. In hind sight, we could of set up a Lithium Battery Management System on them to control the over charging and temperature. However, the importers/suppliers have no idea and if you get into a technical conversation with them, you’ll soon work this out. Hence being their warranty isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by LouisAndNatasha

I’m starting this thread on these batteries as I don’t believe they are near as good as they say they are. My previous battery banks were 2 banks of 4 T105 Trojan 6volts lead acid wet batteries. After many years these finally gave up the ghost and I started looking at the alternatives what to replace with.

Lead Crystal batteries had an identical size battery, physically and with amp hours within a few amps. The spiel from the sales rep made these sound fantastic. When I tried to do research, there was so little actual feed back on the forums, I assumed they were as good as the sales pitch says. So thousands of dollars later I had them fitted in the boat. All is going well. All the parameters on the Victron unit are set to match the information stamped on the side of the batteries and data sheet - voltage, temperature, etc..

One year later, when I was checking the batteries, as I do regularly, lo and behold, 2 of them are looking like footballs! The batteries had swollen so much, the had stuck together and needed a screwdriver to prise them apart! But phew, only 2 of them had swollen. I get straight in touch with the sales people/supplier who to say the least, we’re not impressed to hear from me. After much deliberation and myself paying for the Victron people to come and inspect all the battery settings, download all the graphs, etc. from the Victron unit, the supplier FaceTiming my electrician, they begrudgingly replaced the 2 batteries out of a bank of 8. They believed we were under charging the batteries as I was “only” charging at 100 amps. I was told by the supplier that a battery bank of this size needs to be charged at 200 amps continuously for X number of hours stepping down to 160 for X number of hours, etc.

The supplier suggested that the other batteries would also all fail now and there is no warranty on them even though they offer a full 3 year warranty. They didn’t feel they even needed to warranty the first 2. So in with the 2 new batteries. “Unfortunately” I could not set the battery charger at 200 amps as frankly I don’t know anyone who has a charger this big. But I did increase to 120amps as my maximum.

Sure enough, just one week later, the other 6 batteries had all swollen up, even though I was checking the settings and would even go as far as turning off the battery charger when I felt them getting hot. The supplier has left us high and dry claiming it’s the Victron electronics that are rubbish not his fantastic batteries made in China.

So buyer beware. Keep in mind that the charging parameters they expect are huge and that I don’t believe our battery bank is excessively big for a live aboard boat. We believe that because these batteries are continuously chasing more amps, even though they are full, the battery charger keeps pushing more power into them. Hence being they are swelling, getting hot and damaging the cells. The supplier will not honour their warranty as you will need to have, on a battery bank my size, a 200 amp charger that can push this in continuously for 5 or 6 hours.

So if you are considering Lead Crystal Batteries, I would strongly recommend you read my post, do some real research from people on the ground and not the sales pitch of the supplier. My wife found an article on Women the Sail/cruise (?) where they are travelling through the equator area running their engines and fried their Lead Crystal Batteries as well. There were other posts out there as well. They seem to be temperature sensitive in our opinion. I believe that other yacht owners are going to be tempted to give these a go and it’s going to potentially be disastrous without the know how of setting these up correctly. In hind sight, we could of set up a Lithium Battery Management System on them to control the over charging and temperature. However, the importers/suppliers have no idea and if you get into a technical conversation with them, you’ll soon work this out. Hence being their warranty isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

Hi sorry to hear this, out of curiosity have you approached fair trading regarding your experience, especially if you were not appraised of the high amp charging requirement prior to purchase. That alone would suggest to me that this bank sold for an express purpose was in fact not fit for purpose.
You can only try.

[SV.Louna]

G’day Bob
I have considered doing this, however I am so PO’d with these batteries, the best I think fair trading could achieve is a new set of batteries. And then I’m back to where I was 12 months ago. I have refitted T105’s in there for the time being and starting to do homework on Lithium.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by LouisAndNatasha

G’day Bob
I have considered doing this, however I am so PO’d with these batteries, the best I think fair trading could achieve is a new set of batteries. And then I’m back to where I was 12 months ago. I have refitted T105’s in there for the time being and starting to do homework on Lithium.

Hi, if they are unfit for purpose the there is a chance they could require the vendor to refund, or at least part. FWIW you have every right to be pissed off.

[StuM]

What you say doesn't make sense.


"My previous battery banks were 2 banks of 4 T105 Trojan 6volts lead acid wet batteries. After many years these finally gave up the ghost and I started looking at the alternatives what to replace with.

Lead Crystal batteries had an identical size battery, physically and with amp hours within a few amps."

If,as you say, your LC battery bank is the same Ah as your previous 8 x T105s, that's about 900Ah @ 12V total capacity.




"a 200 amp charger that can push this in continuously for 5 or 6 hours"
If you have to push 200A into the batteries for 5-6 hours, that's 1000-1200 Ah. A lot more than the 900Ah total capacity.

[SV.Louna]

Yes I do understand what you’re saying I will go through some emails and see if I can get the exact wording . you will find I am pretty accurate . And I agree with your line of thinking

[SV.Louna]

Here is what the supplier asked me to do:

Charging - The charger is significantly undersized for the size of the battery Pack. The XXXXX series of Lead Crystal Batteries need to be charged at 20% of the C10 Rate. You have a 1040 AH pack at C10 therefore needing a 200 Amp charge current…Minimum. We understand that you have a Victron Quatro 120 Amp charger that was set on 70 Amps with the ADAPTIVE CHARGE MODE. What this means is that the charger would be producing around 40 Amps at best. This charge current was way too low. Any loads coming of the battery will reduce the available charge current limiting even further the batteries ability to charge up. This basically means the charger will be constantly charging which causes heat to build up.

Charger Settings - The charger needs to be set as follows

Bulk 14.6 at 20% of the 10 hour rate of the battery, in parallel the charger should be x 2 of the amps to ensure correct charging in bulk mode
Absorb 14.7 at 10% of the 10 hour rate of the battery and again same current applies as above
Float when the boat is dormant should be set at 13.7 and 5 amp max current applies.

So they are rating them at 1040AH. However, the batteries were stamped with 210AH each at 6v multiplied by 8, you do the math...

[arsenelupiga]

thanks LAN, you just higlighted another reason to go LFP DIY way

[StuM]

Just did a bit googling and everywhere I found charging instructions says they need to be charged at 0.2-0.5C in bulk mode for up to 2-3 hours.
That's got to be a deal killer for any sailboat with a big battery bank. I think I'll pass on them when it comes time to replace my 1000Ah

[Pete7]

Yes, thank you. Just convinces me more and more that FLA will do quite nicely for some time to come.

Pete

[mickt243]

Originally Posted by LouisAndNatasha

G’day Bob
I have considered doing this, however I am so PO’d with these batteries, the best I think fair trading could achieve is a new set of batteries. And then I’m back to where I was 12 months ago. I have refitted T105’s in there for the time being and starting to do homework on Lithium.

Look up Australian consumer law, basically for a major failure the supplier is required to repair, replace or refund and it’s your choice not theirs. Also applies to them supplying goods not fit for a stated purpose.

www.accc.gov.au is a good place to start

[john61ct]

I thought it was widely acknowledged that the outlandish claims these "lead crystal" vendors make are a scam.

In dozens of threads discussing with defenders, none have come up with objective data supporting those claims, I surmised choice-supportive bias.

Sorry for the hassle, but I bet Australia's leading consumer protection regime will help you out if you persist.

[John Oz]

I have been using a bank of Beta Lead Crystal batteries for 3 years and have had no problems to date. Mostly charged with 2 Solar panels, topped up with shore power or onboard generator. I have a smart charger for using shore power and the generator and I top them up individually once a year. The boat has sailed east to west Australia, through the tropics. I will let you know if I have problems down the track but for now I love them.

[phalo]

Under Australian law you would have a case for full compensation as the batteries have not lasted a reasonable life. Charge rate can be an issue in the long term but not your experience.
If the ACCC drag their feet I would go straight to "The Checkout" on ABC TV who usually have much better success.

If ABC TV don't think it is topical enough then I would raise an invoice for all your associated expenses and send to the battery provider with 7 days to pay. Then I would send a statement advising legal action may be taken if not paid withing 7 days. Then if not paid I would send another statement (the magistrate likes a record of your attempts) then submit a claim through the small debts system (solicitors/lawyers are not usually allowed )in the state you bought them. Or the state you were berthed in. I think they now call it QCAT in Queensland.
I have used this latter process in years past with considerable success though they often expect you to accept a compromise. In fact I have heard of it used by people generating false invoices and getting paid.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by LouisAndNatasha

[...]
So if you are considering Lead Crystal Batteries, I would strongly recommend you read my post, do some real research from people on the ground and not the sales pitch of the supplier. [...]

I'm sorry to hear that these batts didn't last long for you. At first I thought you've been ripped off pretty badly. Then I looked into this technology and noticed that they say it's essential and crucial to charge them at a particular rate:

https://leadcrystalbatteries.com.au/...v=6cc98ba2045f

However, it's not stated anywhere in their datasheets that charging them at lower currents will destroy the batts very quickly, as it was the case for you.
Hence I'd say they shouldn't have sold you such a big bank without making sure you have or buy the equipment to charge it to their specs.

Since their own chargers top out at 50A:

https://www.leadcrystalbatteries.com...tery-chargers/

the two ways to charge any bank greater than 150Ah would be to have more than one charger in parallel (and a huge power source to drive them) or have relays in place to charge the batts individually in a round-robin fashion.