Propane, alcohol or kerosene stoves?

[GrowleyMonster]

Finally I am satisfied with the Sea Swing installation. I removed the bottom and fabricated a sort of cage of aluminum angle stock with holes drilled at about 1/2" intervals on the verticals, for height adjustment. Two pieces of all thread go through the holes at the desired height, upon which rests the mounting plate for the stove of choice. I have equipped the Prabhat kero/diesel stove retrofitted with a 207b adjustable burner with one, and the Butterfly 2412, similarly modified, with another, and also my MSR Dragonfly backpacker stove, which like the others, burns kero or diesel pretty good.

The adjustable burner tempts the user to adjust the flame really low. However, odor problems appear, on low flame, due I think to incomplete combustion. With the flame maintained between about 30% to full blast, there is no odor with the two pressure tank primus style stoves, the Butterfly and the Prabhat. Of course they are functionally identical, being just tanks with pumps, and identical 207b regulated burners. Wow I love that burner. I will be ordering another complete burner for a spare, you can bet on that.

As good as the two 1930 Primus style stoves are, the Dragonfly beats them like bad puppies. The dragonfly can be turned down to a bare simmer, in fact down to just "warm", and puts out no odor. At full blast, it surpasses the other two stoves. It is compact and lights easily, and just works. It is a PITA to deal with the external fuel bottle, and took me a little fiddling to find just the right way to hang the fuel bottle to keep the Sea Swing balanced. The Dragonfly has proven itself to me and is now my favorite fossil fuel stove for the boat.

I just made a pot of chicken tortilla soup on the Origo, first time I have used it. Takes about two minutes longer to boil water than the kero/diesel stoves. Zero odor. Lights immediately. Very solidly constructed, but too big and bulky to hang nicely from the Sea Swing. And at low flame settings I think it is maybe a bit wasteful. The adjustment knob doesn't cut back on fuel use directly... it just blocks the flame. Alcohol being more expensive and less calorific than diesel, it is already at a cost/benefit deficit, and the inefficient way of adjusting the heat output doesn't help. Also I think even with the gasket in place, over several days significant alcohol will evaporate from the tank. The alcohol is very safe... a splash of water extinguishes a small alcohol fire immediately. It burns clean, very little soot and zero smoke. But all in all to me the alcohol nonpressurized stove is an also ran, next to a good pump-up diesel/kerosene stove with an adjustable burner.

I have resolved to only use actual flame type cookers for this and the next week, and not use any of my electic cooking gadgets at all. I think the Dragonfly will be getting the most airtime. It just works so well. I also have the similar Whisperlite, but the Dragonfly has definite advantages over that one, so I will not be adapting it to the Sea Swing. I have a Trangia somewhere on the boat and I want to try that, and a final effort to create the ultimate homebrew drink can alcohol stove. Anyway here are pics.

First pic is my dinner, chicken tortilla soup, cooking. Then a closeup of the mount. The shoe slips down into the mount and removes the same way. Then the flame of the Dragonfly at simmer, and at full roar.

[hpeer]

Growley,

I'm going to say this one more time simply so your experiments do not mislead others....

The PRIMUS KEROSENE BURNERS SUCH AS FOUND IN TAYLOR STOVES AND WHICH YOU ARE USING ARE NOT MADE FOR DIESEL...KEROSENE ONLY.

I just recieved 2 brand new Hanse burners, the Base Camp instructions included have this warning in BIG RED LETTERS.

USE ONLY CLEAN PARAFFIN/KEROSENE WITH THIS BURNER, DO NOT USE GASOIL, DIESEL, PETROL, GASOLINE OR ANY OTHER INFLAMABLE FUEL.
Using incorrect fuel can result in SERIOUS INJURY OR DANGER OF DEATH.

Do what you will, this is for others who may be coaxed into experimenting by your posts.

Good luk and safe journies.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Growley,

I'm going to say this one more time simply so your experiments do not mislead others....

The PRIMUS KEROSENE BURNERS SUCH AS FOUND IN TAYLOR STOVES AND WHICH YOU ARE USING ARE NOT MADE FOR DIESEL...KEROSENE ONLY.

I just recieved 2 brand new Hanse burners, the Base Camp instructions included have this warning in BIG RED LETTERS.

USE ONLY CLEAN PARAFFIN/KEROSENE WITH THIS BURNER, DO NOT USE GASOIL, DIESEL, PETROL, GASOLINE OR ANY OTHER INFLAMABLE FUEL.
Using incorrect fuel can result in SERIOUS INJURY OR DANGER OF DEATH.

Do what you will, this is for others who may be coaxed into experimenting by your posts.

Good luk and safe journies.

Could you elaborate on why diesel is dangerous, and kerosene is not? Specifically, road diesel, which is probably cleaner than marine or farm diesel and is my preferred stove fuel. Just curious. Are you just parroting the disclaimer, or do you know something I don't know? I am all for safety, but I see no indication that kerosene is any safer than clean diesel in a stove. Others might want to know this, too.

[Adelie]

Kerosene and diesel are chemically similar but different enough that they burn differently.

Consequently burners for each are different and swapping fuels may lead to problems with incomplete combustion, an excess of CO in the exhaust, flare ups, damage to the burner and/or sudden extinguishment of flame which leads to spilled fuel depending on the exact pairing of burner & fuel.

[hpeer]

Which is why it smells, it's not burning right.

CO poisoning.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Could you elaborate on why diesel is dangerous, and kerosene is not?

Its not the fuels that are inherently dangerous, its the operator!

[Adelie]

If it smells it's probably incomplete combustion.

CO is odorless. Gives you a headache usually before knocking you out.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Kerosene and diesel are chemically similar but different enough that they burn differently.

Consequently burners for each are different and swapping fuels may lead to problems with incomplete combustion, an excess of CO in the exhaust, flare ups, damage to the burner and/or sudden extinguishment of flame which leads to spilled fuel depending on the exact pairing of burner & fuel.

How are burners different, for kerosene and diesel?

So, if the fuel is burning completely with no smell or smoke or soot, nice blue flame, etc, it makes no difference? Because after switching to road diesel and keeping the flame burning visibly outside the spreader/diffuser on the 207 type burner, it is burning very cleanly indeed. My MSR Dragonfly is described by the manufacturer as multifuel, diesel capable, so I won't count that one, and my remarks and questions relate only to the Primus type pump stoves with 207 type "silent" adjustable burners.

If CO production levels are the only risk, then perhaps a bit of testing would be instructive.

I think a lot of diesel-phobia is left over from the bad old days of high sulfur diesel.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Which is why it smells, it's not burning right.

CO poisoning.

With the flame on the 207 burner adjusted to at least 30%, the kerosene smells slightly, but not much. The road diesel doesn't smell at all. The roarer type burners originally on the stoves didn't smell at all, with either fuel. Next trip to Home Depot I am getting a digital CO analyzer/alarm.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

How are burners different, for kerosene and diesel?

The old MSR XGK stove (the pre-cursor to the dragonfly) came with three different jets (X) for diesel (G) for gasoline and (K) for kerosene. I think the dragonfly only ships with two jets, so MSR must have figured out how to keep it happy burning both fuels on the same jet. But older stoves definitely have different jets for diesel and kerosene.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

With the flame on the 207 burner adjusted to at least 30%, the kerosene smells slightly, but not much. The road diesel doesn't smell at all. The roarer type burners originally on the stoves didn't smell at all, with either fuel. Next trip to Home Depot I am getting a digital CO analyzer/alarm.

Growley,
That is a wonderful idea. Stove or no stove. It will also alert you to leaks in your exhaust.

[hpeer]

My comments were strictly related to 207b burner. As were others here. We are not talking about the Dragonfly.

Growley, I get trying to do things on the cheap and on eliminating complexity. But I really do think you are making things worse not better. From reading your posts it sure sounded like you were complaining about diesel smell on low settings.

And, yes, I read you a standard disclaimer off of brand new Hanse burners.

Now it may be that you can make an older unit work. It may have a little bit of a loose tolerance. I have know folks here to claim that, with the older burners, you need to match the jet with the pricker.

So let me just be clear in a couple of points.

A. I'm no expert and I'm not telling you what to do. If you want experts go to the spirit burner forum and post your project there. Lots of free advice about your stove. Good folks.
B. My post was intended to warn OTHERS who may be following your lead. That there is at least a percieved danger and what you are doing is NOT recommended. It's one thing to risk your life, it's another to encourage others, even if unintentionally.
C. Frankly I think you are spending a lot of money experimenting. This is a well trodden path. I would suggest you look into buying a quality cooker. If you are just doing this for the hell of it, carry on.
D. If you are intent on using the Sea Swing then maybe you want to get a quality Kero stove, check out Base Camp. I believe the Sea Swing was designed for a single burner Kero stove similar to the knock off you have.

Good luck.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Growley,
That is a wonderful idea. Stove or no stove. It will also alert you to leaks in your exhaust.

LOL I have no exhaust. This is an exhaust-less boat.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by hpeer

My comments were strictly related to 207b burner. As were others here. We are not talking about the Dragonfly.

Growley, I get trying to do things on the cheap and on eliminating complexity. But I really do think you are making things worse not better. From reading your posts it sure sounded like you were complaining about diesel smell on low settings.

And, yes, I read you a standard disclaimer off of brand new Hanse burners.

Now it may be that you can make an older unit work. It may have a little bit of a loose tolerance. I have know folks here to claim that, with the older burners, you need to match the jet with the pricker.

So let me just be clear in a couple of points.

A. I'm no expert and I'm not telling you what to do. If you want experts go to the spirit burner forum and post your project there. Lots of free advice about your stove. Good folks.
B. My post was intended to warn OTHERS who may be following your lead. That there is at least a percieved danger and what you are doing is NOT recommended. It's one thing to risk your life, it's another to encourage others, even if unintentionally.
C. Frankly I think you are spending a lot of money experimenting. This is a well trodden path. I would suggest you look into buying a quality cooker. If you are just doing this for the hell of it, carry on.
D. If you are intent on using the Sea Swing then maybe you want to get a quality Kero stove, check out Base Camp. I believe the Sea Swing was designed for a single burner Kero stove similar to the knock off you have.

Good luck.

Not sure what you mean by loose tolerance. The burners are brand new. Clearly, they don't have to be old to work.
/
Yeah it smelled the first time I tried it. I was using marine diesel from a neighbor's tank, and not road diesel. And BTW, kerosene smelled, too, with the flame turned too low. As long as the flame is up high enough that it is visible outside the "silent" burner cap, it doesn't smell.

Anywaay, the experimenting is over, except maybe for a CO test. I am quite satisfied, having cooked several meals on them, with the two stoves in question, and VERY happy so far with the Dragonfly. I really don't see how you could improve on these. They burn nice and hot, and adjust quite well, much better than single valve stoves. And they can burn very economical and readily available fuel.

You keep going on and on about the dangers of these stoves, without any specifics. Will they explode? Burn the boat to the waterline? Poison me with CO? And a kerosene burning stove will not? You are not just beating a dead horse. You are beating a horse that is not even there.

Actually I think the Sea Swing was originally designed for a non pressure alcohol burner. I might be wrong on that. What quality kero cooker are you suggesting, for the Sea Swing? The only ones I see are nonadjustable Manaslu stoves. Those are fine for heating water for coffee. Or noodles or whatever. Not real cooking requiring some control over heat. The only way to adjust the flame on those, is to depressurize the tank or pump it up more. Not practical or satisfactory. Best option from Base Camp is their Hansa 207b burner fitted to a stove that needs one. Two of which I have. I would say the quality is quite satisfactory. And from the past several days of use I would say that if it doesn't burn diesel properly then I am certainly being cleverly and completely deceived by my eyes and nose.

Since you say you have a couple of these burners, maybe you should try one with clean gas station diesel, prime it with alcohol, and light it off. I think you will be surprised. You can always empty the dreaded diesel from the tank and use kerosene to rinse away all that deadly diesel and render the stove safe and fit for use again.

Will diesel burn in other primus type burners? Well, it burns nicely in the Butterfly. Can't vouch for any others. But jet size with non volatile liquid fuels is not nearly as critical as some folks make it out to be. Just out of curiousity I removed the DK nipple from the Dragonfly, and replaced it with the CG nipple. It burnt diesel, with slightly smaller flame and slightly more yellow. Not optimally but good enough for emergency. The DK nipple is presented as suitable for either diesel or kerosene because their viscosity and flash points etc are very very similar. Essentially, the same. Not because of some magic design feature of the stove. Perhaps the adjustment valve helps, I don't know. But the 207b has that. I have not seen a dedicated diesel nipple for this 207b burner. I can only assume it is because a diesel nipple for this burner would be identical to a kerosene nipple.

But I won't bother directly rebutting your alarmist posts anymore, so feel free to proclaim that the sky is falling or the earth is flat and voyagers will surely fall off the edge, or that diesel in a 207b burner will kill. It's not such a bad thing, to make people wonder and think about safety, and a bit of paranoia doesn't hurt much of anything. People should know that all flame sources on boats are inherently dangerous. Safest way to have a meal at sea is always going to be to just eat out of the can.

[hpeer]

Growley,

Between cookers and heaters I have 10 burners.

The manufacturer says to not use diesel. Argue with him

Have fun, just do it at your own risk.