Propane, alcohol or kerosene stoves?

[KetoNomad]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

That would be a good stove for a small boat. It would be easy to adapt a Sea Swing for it or build a gimbal mount for it. But the MSR Dragonfly has a more adjustable flame. It is actually pretty awesome. If you have a whisperlite and you see a dragonfly in use, you will want a dragonfly and there will soon be yet another whisperlite on ebay. The only minus is that the dragonfly's pump is not compatible with the other MSR stoves, so I am told.

Hey! I just watched a video on the dragonfly stove, does it use multiple fuels too? I think I'll keep my Whisperlite, TBH but then I've never had difficulty getting it to simmer. I also rarely cook anything tricky, steaks are as tricky a food as I've cooked on it unless you count bacon as harder. Cool stove, though, the Dragonfly.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by KetoNomad

Hey! I just watched a video on the dragonfly stove, does it use multiple fuels too? I think I'll keep my Whisperlite, TBH but then I've never had difficulty getting it to simmer. I also rarely cook anything tricky, steaks are as tricky a food as I've cooked on it unless you count bacon as harder. Cool stove, though, the Dragonfly.

Yeh takes white gas, unleaded, kerosene, diesel, most any fuel. I believe you have to change the nipple for drastic fuel changes like from kero to white gas. White gas, unleaded, naptha, etc probably use the same nipple. Diesel and kero and jet fuel etc, probably another nipple. Then there is propane/butane. Yes, unless I am mistaken, it burns gas too. That would be a different nipple. So three different nipples, I am lead to believe. Honestly I don't see what the whisperlite can do that the dragonfly can't do better, and they are priced similarly. In fact while I was writing this, I basically sold myself on the stove and snagged one for $126 new in the box on fleabay. I will put it in my Sea Swing gimbal. The big selling point is that it can simmer really low, without much fiddling. Any stove can simmer, if you stand there twiddling the pressure relief or the burner valve if it has one, or restrict the air flow or whatever. My Butterfly will simmer just fine, as long as I am watching it closely. I just like to not have to constantly be massaging and cajoling it into playing nice.

[GrowleyMonster]

Well, I got my Dragonfly and also a Whisperlite. The Dragonfly is a much smoother stove to operate. The whisperlite is great at high power, but the Dragonfly is no one trick pony. It can put out a pwerful flame or it can turn down to a couple of candles worth of heat. Also the whisperlite is just slightly scary to get going. Of course, it does help to set it right side up. The Dragonfly is less ambiguous in that respect, and very stable on its legs. Neither one made much of a diesel smell. However, I did use alcohol to prime the stoves. The whisperlite was used and had a pretty good coating of soot from starting it with the fuel in the tank. Having used so many primus type stoves, lighting off with alcohol is second nature to me.

My gaskets for the Origo arrived, along with a Trangia alcohol burner and an adjustable burner that fits my new brass primus type pump stove. I lit off that stove after installing the adjustable burner and it works sweet. I can turn it down to where the upside down cup screen thingie just glows red, with no visible flame. The burner is billed as "silent", but actually it is just "quiet". It still has a faint roar. That stove did make a slight diesel smell. To be expected, since the Butterfly does, as well. I actually got two of the adjustable burners so now that I have tried it on the Chinese stove I will put the other on the Butterfly.

Meanwhile I have made about a dozen beer can self pressurizing chimney type alcohol stoves and I am continuing to refine the design. They only hold about 2 tbspoons of fuel, though. Perfect for boiling water for coffee or making some ramen noodles but not enough for serious cookery. I have not tried the Trangia or the Origo yet. Still working on the Sea Swing. I fabricated a mount for it so it can be taken down out of the way and now I am making a underneathy part to hold the various stoves I might use. Adjustable height, of course. Should work great with any of these stoves except the Origo.

A neighbor just gave me the best part of a gallon of denatured alcohol. Kewl. I bummed a half gallon of diesel from a neighbor for more stove fun. My boat is electric so I don't have engine fuel of any kind. Got some lamp oil too, which is baically just kerosene with a little citronella and stuff in it.

I fully intend to get to the bottom of this boat stove controversy.

Next... anchors and boat guns. LOL

[TooCoys]

Originally Posted by hamburking

...And since its not a pump stove, you can use any methyl hydrate in it...does not have to be filtered, pure "stove fuel"...any paint store meth will work.

A full can of fuel will supposedly burn for 7 hours on full. I believe Jessica Watson used one of these on her famous voyage. Her comment on her return was that she had enough meth left over to go around again!

As you can tell, I'm passionate about this stove.

OK! You've convinced me to consider it!

I have a 19"x11" hole in my counter where a two burner alcohol stove USED to be. Previous owners simply put a cutting board on top of it and used an electric hot plate. However, when we start weekend cruising later this year, I'd like to cook eggs and bacon, or simple meals aboard.

Originally I was looking for a two burner drop in stove that I could use those 1lb propane bottles on, and remove when not in use. But the conversation here has made me think a bit more about the safety issue.

I don't subscribe to the "everything is going to blow up" mode of thinking, because we live in an RV full time, and everything from our stove to our furnace and water heater is propane fueled.

But if this works just as well as propane, I'd give it a try.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TooCoys

. . .
I don't subscribe to the "everything is going to blow up" mode of thinking, because we live in an RV full time, and everything from our stove to our furnace and water heater is propane fueled. . . .

. . . and you haven't blown up yet, therefore it can't happen, and it's "perfectly safe". Is that the logic?


Propane is safer on an RV than on a boat, because in an RV, the gas can escape downward. In a boat, leaked propane, which is about 1.5x heavier than air, collects in the bilge, creating a fuel-air bomb.

Nevertheless, propane explosions are very common in RV's:

Propane leak blows up motorhome. See pics. Horrible! – RV Travel

Propane Blamed For Fatal RV Explosion . News | OPB

Officials Investigate Propane Explosion at Idaho RV Park : Woodall's Campground Management

Authorities in Lebanon respond to camper explosion on southeast side | Fox 59


In fact, propane explosions are so common on RV's, that there seems to be an "RV Propane Explosion Lawyer" in every town.


So be careful with that stuff in your RV!!

In my opinion, propane is reasonably safe in an RV, since unlike with a boat there is no bilge, but you still have to take a lot of care with it. I would certainly insist on flame devices, remote solenoid, and gas detectors.

[TooCoys]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

. . . and you haven't blown up yet, therefore it can't happen, and it's "perfectly safe". Is that the logic?

That's not what I said.

What I said was-

Originally Posted by toocoys

I don't subscribe to the "everything is going to blow up" mode of thinking, because we live in an RV full time, and everything from our stove to our furnace and water heater is propane fueled.

No where in that sentence did I say that its perfectly safe and can't happen.

I just don't go overboard with the paranoia. Using common sense, and effective safety practices goes a long way. Such as removing the 1lb bottle and storing it outside the cabin when not in use etc etc etc.


Our RV is equipped with safety sensors and floor mounted detectors which I know work because they go off with any dog fart passed in the immediate area.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TooCoys

. . . Our RV is equipped with safety sensors and floor mounted detectors which I know work because they go off with any dog fart passed in the immediate area.

Good for you! Sadly not even every boat has these, and they are much more needed on boats.

And do you give the dog any special treat for testing the sensors for you?

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

In my opinion, propane is reasonably safe in an RV, since unlike with a boat there is no bilge, but you still have to take a lot of care with it. I would certainly insist on flame devices, remote solenoid, and gas detectors.

For an RV, anywhere in North America, propane would be my fuel of choice. Just not for a boat.

[KetoNomad]

Chee ripes you've got a lot of stuff! ��

[GrowleyMonster]

Okay, update. I have had the modified adjustable primus pump stove knockoff going on dead simmer for 4 hours now (with the hatch and companionway wide open) and I am about to get tired of the diesel smell. I am up in the forward area sitting on the vee berth and I can smell it up here. At first because I just don't get to smell burning hydrocarbons much being on an electric boat, the novelty was actually sort of novel. Now it is about to run me out of here for some fresh air. The original roarer type burner did not put out so much smell. Maybe if I had a hood and stovepipe arrangement it would be better. I will do another test tomorrow with a slightly higher flame setting. It works very smoothly, though, dead simple, stable, no additional pumping or fiddling with the control knob. An excellent cockpit cooker, I imagine, with a windscreen. But the adjustable will be relegated to backup status. The MSR Dragonfly is pretty much odorless. I will run it for a few hours tonight at low simmer and see how it does, but it's looking like the Dragonfly will be my go-to stove away from the dock, or at least my go-to diesel/jetfuel/kerosene/lamp oil stove. I will also fill the Origo and weather permitting, run it a while, maybe cook something on it. Really, alcohol is quite a good stove fuel, except for questions of cost and availability when compared to diesel.

No, I have not ran any of these stoves on gasoline or white gas or naptha or similar. Especially the old style primus types. The reason is that the normal method of extinguishing the stove is to open the pressure release screw and vent the tank. Unfortunate thing to do, IMHO, as the vent will be releasing a lot of gasoline vapor right next to an open flame. I'm not going there. And the whole gasoline fumes in the bilge thing. NOT NOT NOT safer than propane!

And speaking of safety, great care must be taken in maintaining and monitoring these stoves even with kero or diesel. The fuel could be hot when spilled or leaked, and ignite easily. Unlike alcohol, water is not always a good extinguishing agent for these liquid fuels. They aren't going to explode, no, but if they are spilled and set alight, they could certainly burn you to the waterline if you have a major malfunction of the stove while topside or sleeping. I am thinking a drip pan of some sort under these stoves, maybe filled with baking soda or something, would be good insurance. A foam type fire extinguisher dedicated to the galley would be great. New stoves, especially, often have leaky bits. The adjustable burner I just tested had a pretty good leak where the valve control stem goes into the burner. It tightened up just fine, but just sayin. No question about it, all in all, alcohol is the safest stove fuel, and non pressurized alcohol stoves are the safest stoves. Best? Nah. I have to give highest marks to my Dragonfly, at this point, burning diesel. Haven't tried kero in it yet and don't have a ready source of jet fuel at present. Once I have it securely mounted in the Sea Swing, it is gonna be the king of boat stoves.

Gotta get me a CO monitor. I don't have one. Anybody have any recommendations for a cheap but dependable one?

[hpeer]

Growley,

Please explains EXACTLY what kind of pressure stove you are using. A photo would be great. I'm not aware of the 207B burners working adequately on diesel. I think I have heard that you MIGHT get by with a different jet.

This site...
http://www.endtimesreport.com/BF-2412.html
Has a review of the Butterfly stove which says, in part...
"Kerosene pressure stoves will burn diesel fuel, alcohol, stove oil, etc, in an emergency, but for indoors use only kerosene is recommended." Note they bolder the Kero only bit.

If you have not seen it this site may interest you. A basic pressure Kero lamp, with a cooker top, and can be used as heater.
http://www.britelyt.com

BTW, did you notice my pic of my Sea Swing above? I took it to the store to buy the stove. Not all stoves would fit. Also it is limited to using a small fuel canister. And I had to weight it pretty heavily because it is designed to work with a Kero pressure stove with fuel tank.

Are you familiar with this site?
http://classiccampstoves.com

http://speedsterstoves.co.uk/alcohol/meths-burners.html

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Growley,

Please explains EXACTLY what kind of pressure stove you are using. A photo would be great. I'm not aware of the 207B burners working adequately on diesel. I think I have heard that you MIGHT get by with a different jet.

This site...
BUTTERFLY #2412 PRESSURE STOVE
Has a review of the Butterfly stove which says, in part...
"Kerosene pressure stoves will burn diesel fuel, alcohol, stove oil, etc, in an emergency, but for indoors use only kerosene is recommended." Note they bolder the Kero only bit.

If you have not seen it this site may interest you. A basic pressure Kero lamp, with a cooker top, and can be used as heater.
BriteLyt Multi-Fuel Lanterns | Camping, Hiking, Survival Equipment

BTW, did you notice my pic of my Sea Swing above? I took it to the store to buy the stove. Not all stoves would fit. Also it is limited to using a small fuel canister. And I had to weight it pretty heavily because it is designed to work with a Kero pressure stove with fuel tank.

Are you familiar with this site?
Classic Camp Stoves

Burners - speedsterstoves

Here is the stove.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Almost identical to the Butterfly 2412 which I have had for some time. The actual brand name is "Prabhat"

Here is the burner I put on it.
PRIMUS STOVE REGULATING BURNER TAYLORS STOVE OPTIMUS STOVE KEROSENE STOVE | eBay

I actually got two, so I still have another one to put on the Butterfly.

I don't think I have seen those sites yet. I will have a look.

A lot of people modify their Sea Swings to fit a particular stove. I am almost done with mine. Pics when I finish.

[hpeer]

Growley,

OK, that's the Indian knock off of the old Primus. It's a KEROSENE stove, not diesel. I suspect the only reason it works on diesel is because of loose tolerances. I could be wrong, I've never handled one.

I use those burners a lot, all we cook on. There were the original Primus burners and a Portuguese replacement. The Portugese replacement company is gone. I think there was a period when sourcing the burners was tough. Base Camp tried to source some out of India, they put them to test, but eventually never carried them. Taylor had some of a different solid base design, they didn't work well at all, too much mass to keep hot.

Now there is a German company making new improved burners that have gotten very good reviews as even better than the original Primus. They are available from Base Camp in England.

Base Camp is a neat store. They are extremely knowledgeable and extremely customer friendly. They will go out of their way to help and provide advice. Ships Spares also in England is also a good place for spare bits.

Altogether between two boats and a hunting cabin I run 10 of those burners. All on kerosene.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Growley,

OK, that's the Indian knock off of the old Primus. It's a KEROSENE stove, not diesel. I suspect the only reason it works on diesel is because of loose tolerances. I could be wrong, I've never handled one.

I use those burners a lot, all we cook on. There were the original Primus burners and a Portuguese replacement. The Portugese replacement company is gone. I think there was a period when sourcing the burners was tough. Base Camp tried to source some out of India, they put them to test, but eventually never carried them. Taylor had some of a different solid base design, they didn't work well at all, too much mass to keep hot.

Now there is a German company making new improved burners that have gotten very good reviews as even better than the original Primus. They are available from Base Camp in England.

Base Camp is a neat store. They are extremely knowledgeable and extremely customer friendly. They will go out of their way to help and provide advice. Ships Spares also in England is also a good place for spare bits.

Altogether between two boats and a hunting cabin I run 10 of those burners. All on kerosene.

I think the reason it is a kerosene stove and not a diesel stove is that diesel is taxed, being a road fuel, and kero is probably subsidized, being a necessity of life for impoverished villagers in deforested areas. There is not a whole lot of difference in the way that they burn. Anyway, last night I went to the gas station and got some road diesel straight from the pump, and tried it in the modified Prabhat. I made extra sure that the nipple was clear, and I did not let the flame completely disappear into the spreader during the simmer test. The smell was much less noticeable. Also it seems to work best with the stove pumped up really good, even though it is now fitted with the adjustable burner. I just tried the Prabhat with kerosene this morning, and it was pretty horrible initially. I eventually got it burning clean and without too much odor but no matter what I did, it did not burn kerosene quite as painlessly as it did the road diesel. I will maybe try the marine diesel again soon, using what I learned in the road diesel experiment.

Yes, these stoves can be started with fuel from the tank. However, a bit of alcohol in the spirit cup works a lot better. Faster, safer, WAY less soot and smoke, smell, etc. It is worth the hassle of keeping a jug of it onboard. I use an industrial syringe for loading the spirit cup.

Bottom line, either fuel works pretty good if the stove is out in the cockpit or all the hatches are open and fumes venting outside. I give a slight edge in performance and smell to road diesel. Diesel boiled 2 cups of water in this stove mounted in the customized Sea Swing in 4 minutes. I know I could beat that time with the old burner, but not by much. I was able to reduce the flame to just barely simmer the same boiled water. So I know I can make rice on it, and certainly ramen. Roux for a gumbo? Sure, I guess so. I just don't think it is worth my while to make gumbo in an 8" saucepan, which is about the limit for the Sea Swing upper chamber. So I will still be looking at eventually fabricating a gimbal mount that fits a 12" pot or skillet.

I am waiting for some aluminum plate from McMaster to make the gimbal adapter part for the Butterfly 2412, before I fit it with the other 207 burner. (I hope it fits as well as it did on the Indian stove!) Seems a shame that the burner costs half again what the whole butterfly stove costs, and nearly twice what the Prabhat stove costs. But the burner does seem fairly well made. All in all, a worthwhile modification to these very basic ca. 1900 technology roarer stoves.

On another note, Home Depot had denatured alcohol for $17 the other day. Still 7x or more the cost of diesel, but hey, low odor and a bit safer. Too bad it isn't drinkable LOL cause it's about 1/3 the cost of Everclear.

[hpeer]

Growley,

FWIW we cook inside the cabin, three burners going. No problem.

But that's with a Taylor Stove with Primus burners.

Our boats is our home and we need a suitable stove.

I think you would be happier, in the long run, with a higher quality stove you can use inside.