Rookie Questions

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Seamaster925

The vibration could also be caused by the shrouds on the leeward side of the boat. They are usually slack when the boat is pressed and can vibrate. Depending on how things are set up, the vibration could reverberate through the boat.

With all due respect: I think things which are slack do not vibrate. They can flog but will not vibrate. I think it takes some tension in the stay to let it vibrate - think of a guitar string.

?
barnie

[lannen]

Takein in the reef as it is easier to let it out if you needlessly took it in verses how darn hard it is to take it in way after you shudda and can't think straight cuz your brain aint reefed properly. So then, let it out if you took it in too soon, or always leave it in in case you ever need it then you don't have to cuz it's already in, until you let it out. But then with it being out, it's not reefed so it should come back in and returned to it's standby position (reefed) and ready.

Sovthen, to answer your question..... 42


`sumbody pass me another rum

[cal40john]

You might have had a little too much sail up for the 17-22 knots, but that wasn't the big problem. Even if you had already put the reef in, running into a squall could easily have been too much wind for even the reef. This is a lack of experience with weather forecasting. If you knew that a squall could have short term 50-60 knots, what would you have done before it arrived? I'll bet you can get most of the right answers.

John

[Bash]

Regarding your question as to whether there's a certain wind speed when you should reef, it would respond that it might be better to reef when a certain rudder angle is necessary to correct for weather helm, assuming that you'll be going to weather at least some of the time. The reason for this is to accommodate for variables such as how stretched out your sails are, or whether you're able to depower the sails by flattening the sails, or adding vang, or easing a traveler, et cetera.

On most fin-keel boats, once you need to apply more than ten degrees of rudder to control the boat, it's time to reef. Once you need to apply 15 degrees of rudder, a reef would be mandatory.

[Intentional Drifter]

While the boat manual should give you suggested reefing instructions for that design, the overall rule given by Bash is really the best advice, since it will be true for just about all designs. If the weather helm is too much, then shorten sail.

Since it sounds like you're starting out, you might not have figured out vangs, but they're great tools if you've got winds on the cusp of reefing points. If you've not there yet, that's fine -- if the weather is looking on the high side and gusting, then go ahead and put that reef in before you leave the dock. If you're getting 17 to 25, then it really won't cost you in performance and you'll be able to balance the boat much easier. You'll actually probably be faster, since you won't be creating the drag from all that weather helm.

Also, almost always squalls have readily observable features, if you know what you're looking at. Some of the marine weather books come with little snap out quick reference cards. Very nice to keep at the nav station. Try not to get surprised by those nasties.

Sounds like you've got a great attitude towards it all. Keep having fun!

ID

[MSN-Travelers]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Only other thing I've got is the prop, if you don't put the transmission in reverse while you're sailing the prop will turn, without the engine running you'll feel the vibrations a lot more.

Originally Posted by RebelY

So I should put the engine in reverse? Didn't realize that. Do I just move the lever back into reverse without having started the engine?

Thanks,
David

Just a word of caution here. Putting the transmission in reverse to lock the drive shaft is not a blanket rule. You must take into consideration the engine/transmission combination in your boat. Yanmar has published a service bulletin that spicifically states that the transmission WILL be left in neutral.

On the other hand, the Pearson that I race on (BMW one-lung diesel) is always locked in reverse when under sail.

[witchcraft]

We reef early, go faster and more comfortably. I am the wind and weather watcher on our boat, I find the water often gives a clue as to what the wind is doing ahead and behind.
Wing on wing is tricky especially when rollings. One either has to accept a certain amount of collapsing head sail, or perhaps choose to sail with it alone. On the sloop I did not like running with the main up, we are more inclined with our gaff rig to do this. However, we prevent things and only in light airs do we wing on wing all four sails.
sounds like it was an exciting sail....and we all have tales of things we did that we now know to approach in a different way. It's how we learn. Glad no harm was done.
Fair winds

[Mark Johnson]

One question that you didn't ask... At least half of the skills of becoming a good cruiser, are not about sailing, they are about anchoring skills! One can't over emphasize the importance, = moral imperative, of knowing how to anchor properly!

Too many "new cruisers" become great at handling their boats at sea, but then drag down on their neighbor in the anchorage.

Be sure you read up on these skills too! There are past threads here on the subject, books available out the wazoo, web sites, etc. It is not difficult to learn, just WAY more to it than one might think.

Mark

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by RebelY

1. When sailing a typical charter sloop (43' - 47' beneteau monohull with jib rather than genoa), what wind strength would you consider strong enough to require a reef? Or alternatively can you judge by the amount of heel / difficulty of holding a course?
David

Have a look on the internet for Neil Pryde Sails. They put out a Tuning Guide for Beneteau boats they supply sails for.
Using that guide you can see that the Genoa fairleads (car) can be moved back one spot or so as the wind comes up over 12 knots.
His suggestion for my boat, a Beneteau is to put a roll in the Genoa about 15 knots. A reef in the main about 17 knots. Second reef in the main and Genoa by 25 knots.


So upwind for me I will start shortening sail at the majic numbers you talk about 17 knots. By 22 knots the boat must be reefed or you will have too much weather helm to sail fast (or have control!).

Of course this makes Trade Wind sailing upwind one where you are always reefed.
This seems to be considered some mark of a failed sailor if he sails a charter boat with a reef! Trade Winds are nothing to do with gentle breezes designed for happy sailors trading rum and ass about the world... the term 'Trade' may come from the Dutch word for 'Directional'... a trade wind is a directional wind.
When you happen to have an old fashioned sailing ship sailing downwind its fine to carry as much sail as you can stick up the various poles. However, for us in modern fore and aft rig boats sailing upwind we only need a skerick of the sail our boats have as a maximum.

Reef and you will find you are faster, more stable, better steered and the women folk won't be throwing up over you Rum and Coke....


Mark

[Bash]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

This seems to be considered some mark of a failed sailor if he sails a charter boat with a reef!

Isn't that the truth!

We need to get the word out that the true mark of a failed charterer is the fellow motorsailing downwind in trade winds on the jib only because he thinks it's too windy to put up the main.

Some folks never learn to reef, and for these folks the wind will never be a friend.

[Seamaster925]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

With all due respect: I think things which are slack do not vibrate. They can flog but will not vibrate. I think it takes some tension in the stay to let it vibrate - think of a guitar string.

?
barnie

Forgive my putative linguistic inexactitude. Although I still think that vibration (dictionary definition = continuous quick, slight shaking movement) is not dependent on tension.

However, for the OP: It could be due to the shrouds flogging (or vibrating).

[RebelY]

Thanks again to everybody for all the information - very valuable.

I'm pretty sure the vibrating was the prop - that's exactly what it felt like.

I'm reasonably happy that I wasn't missing something completely obvious with my wing on wing sailing - it sounds like the jib is going to flap a little in a rolling sea - although no doubt I will improve as time goes by.

Reefing earlier is definitely in my future.

RebelYell

[SkiprJohn]

You've certainly got a lot of good advice. I just have one thing to add. Sometimes its better to not go wing and wing in rolling seas just sail off on one tack and the other to keep your sails full. You'll go faster but maybe not straight for your destination. Just jibe from time to time to keep headed in the approximate direction. The boats that I sail are generally smaller than what you've been chartering but my rule of thumb is that if you are heeling 20 degrees consistently going to weather it is time to put a reef in the main. That doesn't apply to the Folkboat which does pretty good in gusts with the lee rail nearly submerged.
Squalls that look furious should be dealt with by taking down the sails or setting in the 2nd reef.
Happy sailing!
kind regards,

[jyoung]

another thing to remember is that when you see a squall, the winds out in front of it are going to hit you at least 10-15 minutes ahead of the squall.

[st599]

Originally Posted by Bash

Isn't that the truth!

We need to get the word out that the true mark of a failed charterer is the fellow motorsailing downwind in trade winds on the jib only because he thinks it's too windy to put up the main.

Some folks never learn to reef, and for these folks the wind will never be a friend.

Working in Southern Greece as a skipper for charter sailors last year, the group of skippers I was out with decided the failure mark was shared between:
* A group of 22 year old dutch guys who literally shredded main and genoa and then couldn't understand why their deposit was witheld
* An American who couldn't believe our plan on the day the Meltemi was hitting 50 knots was to sit in a bar - he broached and was knocked down within 50m of the entrance
* A group who couldn't make any headway to windward in 30 knots because they refused to put any main up.