Difficult/sloppy crew

[Spindrift NH]

Did you try the team approach, meaning did you all discuss what happened and how to avoid the problems in the future? It seems to me that if you had to stop in the middle of a tack due to a stuck jib sheet that everybody on the vessel should have seen the cause and result and therefore would probably agree that something has to be done to avoid the problem in the future.
BTW, I don't mean that the running of a boat should be a democracy, there must be a captain. I'm talking about discussing over beers after your back at the slip.

[Sovereign797]

Originally Posted by GILow

...
My title would read more like "Managing different expectations"

The OP has a set of expectations of how the boat will be run that are not without merit, but clearly are not shared by the other owners of the boat.

My suggestion is that the other owners feel disenfranchised and have surrendered responsibility. And I am sorry to say it, but the title of the thread makes me suspect the OP is the source of this disconnect.
...

So I sat on this and read it a few times to put it into context and not take offense. I don't think this very narrow window into our life is really enough for you to come to that conclusion, but sure, what is here is all you know.

We've sailed twice without instruction now, on our first time out we all switched positions throughout the day and everything went fine until a puff nearly knocked us down. After that not everyone is as confident as they were and so I ended up at the helm this last time and we managed fine even with much stronger winds than we had seen yet.

From where I was sitting, I can obviously see how they're handling the lines and there was only one time I mentioned the lines were getting tangled, after that I left it alone. And that's why I'm here, I'm not here because I've been berating my friends for 2 months and not getting any results, I'm here because I don't even know if my thoughts on how it 'should' be are correct and if they're not I'm willing to accept that, but if they are, there's been much advice on how to approach the situation that I think has been very fair and thought out or plucked from experience.

I am also here because it's only really one of them kinda half assing the whole thing, but I don't want the thread to be about that, I want to keep it general and informational. I'm not trying to point fingers like a few people replying want to, I'm trying to have a good time sailing.

[Sovereign797]

Originally Posted by Spindrift NH

Did you try the team approach, meaning did you all discuss what happened and how to avoid the problems in the future? It seems to me that if you had to stop in the middle of a tack due to a stuck jib sheet that everybody on the vessel should have seen the cause and result and therefore would probably agree that something has to be done to avoid the problem in the future.
BTW, I don't mean that the running of a boat should be a democracy, there must be a captain. I'm talking about discussing over beers after your back at the slip.

We did talk about it some, but I don't think we really got to the bottom of it and addressed it, more like 'yeah that was crazy, we just kinda stopped'

[Chrisgo]

Where are you at? And what is the size and make of your boat? I ask because I think an appropriate instructor would be a good solution.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Sovereign797

So I sat on this and read it a few times to put it into context and not take offense. I don't think this very narrow window into our life is really enough for you to come to that conclusion, but sure, what is here is all you know.
...

Good, because I am not out to give offence, but rather to provoke reflection through what I hope is a frank, but not rude, critique.

I only have a small view into your situation, but I read a LOT into words, and I believe your choice of title reveals a lot. It reveals what you may be subconsciously expressing to the other owners of the boat.

This boat is a private vessel. It is not a military installation or a government institution. All owners are absolutely equal in their ownership and responsibility. Semantics about the person who is on the wheel being skipper at the time are just that, semantics. They are not formally entrenched in any kind of recognised structure in your situation, so are no help at all. Talk of previous military experience only reiterates to me that such expectations have no place on the boat you describe and makes me concerned for all involved.

This boat IS a democracy, despite opinions to the contrary.

Without the formal structures of a military organisation or the organisation tree of a private business, you are going to have to make this work by democratic means and that is going to be harder.

I reiterate my original assertion, I feel confident that it will help. You ALL need to feel equally confident in your abilities and position on the boat, and I believe the best way of deriving this confidence is for each of you to privately gain that status in a way that suits each of you best. Whether it be with other crew, instructors or solo. And each of the other owners is going to have to support and endorse that process.

When each of you is equally confident and each is equally invested in the day to day running of the boat, I will bet that the level of tidiness and discipline will be the envy of any navy boat.

Then I reckon you are in for some enjoyable times together.

Matt

[Terra Nova]

Another thing to consider is that, on a crewed boat, the helmsman is often not the captain or crew chief.

[Sovereign797]

Matt thanks for your honest as frank viewpoint.

To be clear, the title has more to do with getting people to look than the actual described situation.

And I'm under no delusion I can treat these folks like military or subordinates in any way. As you say, this boat IS a democracy and requires some tact. Which is why I would even ask the question, for help with that part.

But I think you and others have the right of it, some separate instruction would probably alleviate a lot of this.

[JPA Cate]

Good on ya, Sovereign.

I honestly think it is difficult to shift back and forth between the highly structured military situation and a nominal "democracy". Formal instruction could indeed clarify a lot of stuff.

Ann

[carstenb]

Soverign, if this continues it will eventually get you all into trouble. There are many reasons why a boat should be kept tidy - safety being not the least of them

Practical examples are great for getting people to "get the message". Something you can try with you co-ownes is (while at the dock on a calm day), address this issue. Something along the lines of

Hey guys, last time we were out the lines were a mess and we could have gottten into a lot of trouble if we had run into a sudden wind change. here's what can happen

Then take a line that runs through a clutch, drop the free end on the deck and kidk it around so you can be sure it will konot itself. Now have one of your crew go around to the other the of the clutch and start pulling the line through. At some point it will jam.

Here's the question to ask the crew - Now what? If the fellow pulling the line through keeps tension on it - there is no way you will be able to unknot the line.

An example like this will likely have the lightbulbs going off over top of their heads. And you won't need to be Capt. Bligh.

As a side note - even the best of us can end in the situation described above. What do we do?

Every seaman should carry a knife. If you're in a sh*t situation - cut the line and worry about it later. My wife and I always carry a knife and on our boat, we have a sheath knife strapped to the vang, another at the helm and one on the coachroof. Twice a year I celan, sharpen and rub them down with winch grease so they are always sharp and ready to be used.

How many on your boat carry a knife?

To be fair - most sailors learn this about lines/sheets as they gain experience. The first time they have to spend a lot of time unknotting a line - they realize it could have been prevented

[Spinmonkey]

You could send them this and say hey guys, check this out

http://youtu.be/H-SCttWZChc


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[MarkJ]

What was the reason you guys bought the boat?

To load it up with booze and chase hot ass?

Or to become 'serious' sailors?

What do you think their expectations were, and have they changed now?

[Chrisgo]

Originally Posted by Spinmonkey

You could send them this and say hey guys, check this out

http://youtu.be/H-SCttWZChc


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

That's an incredibly well done and informative video! Thanks!

[IntoMyHealth]

I agree! Neat and tidy lines. My wife tells me all the time!

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Chrisgo

Asking a perfectionist to lighten up is kind of like trying to stuff a body into the trunk of a Miata.

Keeping the lines clear and free is not anything like being a perfectionist. That is just very basic safety and seamanship.

Clean, clear decks are the first step in preventing trips, falls, injuries and man overboard situations. Fouled lines in strong winds could cause you to lose the mast or worse.

[Sovereign797]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

What was the reason you guys bought the boat?

To load it up with booze and chase hot ass?

Or to become 'serious' sailors?

What do you think their expectations were, and have they changed now?

None of us are partiers, this is the 'learn to sail boat' before we buy something to go out on the big blue.