Liveaboards at the gate

[bcguy]

"Bloody free loaders, you are not welcome here sparked the shouting swear fest last night between an anchored boat and some shore folk." Privatization of ocean front by and for an infinitesimally small fraction of the local population is greed grab freeloading on its ultimate, I thought as my musings drifted along. Closed up the hatches, stoked the wood stove, pulled out a book and dozed off. This morning I thought this divide will only get worse everywhere, continually. Where is this going? So, I thought I would learn as much as I could about this conflict. This forum has many inciteful, intelligent people. (I have been here a long time). In this effort to be more fully educated I am hoping to obtain and would appreciate some references regarding this issue....articles, postings, threads ...etc (a book?). Thanks in advance...

[Island Time O25]

This is fueled by realization that the liveaboards pay significantly less property taxes than the landlubbers. For essentially similar level of government services, with few exceptions.

Guess what will be coming next? Yep, a tax hike, to make it "equitable". See, not a tax reduction for the lubbers, nooo sireee, can't have that "what about the chiiiiildren?". But what else is new under the Moon?

[Elleroo]

Live aboards don't have sewers, don't have garbage collection, don't have any utilities.


So, should they pay property taxes?

[Cheechako]

What I have seen of it, it's the well-to-do people who think they own the water in front of their expensive waterfront home. Every boater that stays overnight is a homeless person to them and a risk.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Elleroo

Live aboards don't have sewers, don't have garbage collection, don't have any utilities.

So, should they pay property taxes?

Hmmm, our property taxes don't support sewage treatment plants or garbage collection. We are billed for those monthly, by those utility entities.

The overwhelming majority of our property taxes goes to schools, which I guess live aboards don't have school age kids? Oh, but wait, neither do we.

The issue is always someone wants to anchor wherever they want, have shore access wherever - including the ability to tie up their dinghy for as long as they want. A place to dispose of their trash, unless live aboards don't generate any? Pump out sewage is generally "free". Oh, and some want to have a place to park their car for free. And all with no time limit imposed.

Liveaboards in marinas or mooring fields pay for all of these services via their monthly lease. Certainly no property owner has an issue with that, nor for transient anchoring for short to moderate lengths of time. It's the "I want to put my floating apartment here forever, and you need to provide me services for free" that gets the liveaboard a bad name.

[Island Time O25]

I'm all for user fees instead of general (and less than transparent) taxation. Those with school aged children should be paying for schools. Those with vehicles should be paying for road maintenance. And those with boats should be paying for marine based services. No one should be paying for services or goods they are not using. At least directly.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by bcguy

"Bloody free loaders, you are not welcome here sparked the shouting swear fest last night between an anchored boat and some shore folk." Privatization of ocean front by and for an infinitesimally small fraction of the local population is greed grab freeloading on its ultimate, I thought as my musings drifted along. Closed up the hatches, stoked the wood stove, pulled out a book and dozed off. This morning I thought this divide will only get worse everywhere, continually. Where is this going? So, I thought I would learn as much as I could about this conflict. This forum has many inciteful, intelligent people. (I have been here a long time). In this effort to be more fully educated I am hoping to obtain and would appreciate some references regarding this issue....articles, postings, threads ...etc (a book?). Thanks in advance...

Where did this happen? You fake name says BCguy. Does that mean British Columbia? If so, I really want to know where this happened since I hope to wash up on your shores someday.

I can't give you any specific reading material references. There's probably some to be had in legal writings and decisions, and there's a fair share of anecdotes and complaints to be found on CF.

This issue is not confined to watery vistas. I recall reading stories about people being charged with cutting public trees down because they impeded the view from their multi-million-dollar mansion. Come to think of it, that story was also based in BC somewhere. Hmmmmm

Actually, there is some research that might be relevant to the topic. Some human behavioural studies have found that wealthy people tend to be more selfish, entitled, and generally less empathetic. Work by Dan Ariely, Dacher Keltner and Paul Piff come to mind. Here's one discussion paper posted at the World Economic Forum (so not some commie-pinko perspective):

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...s-explain-why/

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

What I have seen of it, it's the well-to-do people who think they own the water in front of their expensive waterfront home. Every boater that stays overnight is a homeless person to them and a risk.

Well, we had a boat last month that tied up to the bulkhead next to some condo slips, instead of an available slip in the adjacent marina. Said he only needed a couple of days. On week three, the condo owner told him he was tied up to private property and needed to leave. So he anchored 20 ft off of the bulkhead, providing a hazard for boats trying to back out of their paid slips to the north and south. And as well, dragged all over the place as he could only use short scope. And left his boat unattended at night, and sometimes for days.

I told him fish and wildlife was going to get him for no registration, for which he replied he owned but hadn't affixed. (He lied.) On week four, they noticed him and ticketed him. He tried to argue that because he wasn't actively "navigating" they didn't have the right. They told him he needed to leave, which he did in week five.

It was a good place for him to put his boat, in his mind. Free tie-up, free parking for his car, free trash disposal, wasn't bothering anyone. Was a great deal compared to those "rich" guys with their boats in the slips - some of which he was partially blocking!

Just as ridiculous as the waterfront owner that doesn't want a boat in his view.

[Dsanduril]

Well, in the people’s republic of Kalifornia the nominal property tax rate on boats is the same as on real property - 1%. And boats don’t enjoy the tax break of Prop 13, although they do get a default depreciation every year. Even with a relatively inexpensive boat it is possible to pay more in property tax on a boat than on a house that’s been owned by the same person for 20 or 30 years. Of course those homeless, derelict boats probably aren’t registered in the first place

I haven’t lived in any of them, but I know the same is true in some East Coast states/counties/parishes/boroughs.

[Harv1941]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Well, in the people’s republic of Kalifornia the nominal property tax rate on boats is the same as on real property - 1%. And boats don’t enjoy the tax break of Prop 13, although they do get a default depreciation every year. Even with a relatively inexpensive boat it is possible to pay more in property tax on a boat than on a house that’s been owned by the same person for 20 or 30 years. Of course those homeless, derelict boats probably aren’t registered in the first place

I haven’t lived in any of them, but I know the same is true in some East Coast states/counties/parishes/boroughs.

I lived for four years on a 54 foot Bluewater Aft Cabin Motor Yacht. Property Tax? Had none, my yacht was Coast Guard Documented and was exempt from the property tax in Virginia, Maryland and the District of Columbia. This was due to the Documented status of my yacht. We berthed our yacht in the DC Waterfront at the Capital Yacht Club Marina and maintained our membership for over four years in that facility. We were legal residents at that time of DC and has been residents of Virginia for some 25 years prior to the purchase of our yacht. We always brought our yacht into a bonafide marina and purchased overnight accomodations. Never anchored and our boat was too big and too heave for most mooring balls according to the waterfront marina DC Wharf Marina harbormaster. So, I can certainly understand the aggravation by some folks and commercial marinas when some entitled yachtsman decides to drop hook or tie up without permission or payment of fee. Time for yachtmen/women to stop being dorks and return to the old ways of being true gentlemen and gentlewomen aboard. We used to have a reputation as generous, honorable and kind people, let us not put that reputation into the crapper.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Harv1941

I lived for four years on a 54 foot Bluewater Aft Cabin Motor Yacht. Property Tax? Had none, my yacht was Coast Guard Documented and was exempt from the property tax in Virginia, Maryland and the District of Columbia. This was due to the Documented status of my yacht. We berthed our yacht in the DC Waterfront at the Capital Yacht Club Marina and maintained our membership for over four years in that facility. We were legal residents at that time of DC and has been residents of Virginia for some 25 years prior to the purchase of our yacht. We always brought our yacht into a bonafide marina and purchased overnight accomodations. Never anchored and our boat was too big and too heave for most mooring balls according to the waterfront marina DC Wharf Marina harbormaster. So, I can certainly understand the aggravation by some folks and commercial marinas when some entitled yachtsman decides to drop hook or tie up without permission or payment of fee. Time for yachtmen/women to stop being dorks and return to the old ways of being true gentlemen and gentlewomen aboard. We used to have a reputation as generous, honorable and kind people, let us not put that reputation into the crapper.

Being honourable means always going into a marina and never anchoring?!? Well, colour me dishonourable . That kind of cruising holds zero interest for me.

No one should be anchoring in inappropriate locations. And they certainly shouldn't be tying up to someone's dock without permission (and usually payment). But there's nothing wrong with swinging from your own hook in appropriate locations, and some of those locations are in view of people on land.

[Greg K]

The folks that incite usually have little insight or intelligence.

[Harv1941]

Well Mike, never said anything about being on your own hook in APPROPRIATE locales.
Being on the hook and swinging about near to other folks very expensive boats/yachts is NOT okay. I don't anchor simply because I don't like that method of overnighting. Prefer the access to facilities, showers (keeps my fresh water tanks from draining), and enjoying the company of local folks, along with their pubs and fine restaurants. Also a good time to get a pump out and top off my tanks. I am not a sailboat person, my twin Cat diesels and twin Westerbeake genseets keep me comfortable underway but shore power to recharge and give those gensets a break is also a good idea. Mainly though, I travel aboard simply to see local areas. I have no desire to be a traveler to the entire Atlantic, Gulf, or Pacific waters. I am happy cruising the Chesapeake, and a vacation run up to Nantucket or down to Jacksonville. Never claimed to be a liveaboard traveler.
Liveaboard life for me was living in 1,000 square feet of motor yacht, watching the sun come up and go down from the bridge with a cup of prime coffee. Ya'll can cruise all over the place as you wish, but for me, the Mid Atlantic/Chesapeake and Potomac waters are just fine.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I'm all for user fees instead of general (and less than transparent) taxation. Those with school aged children should be paying for schools. Those with vehicles should be paying for road maintenance. And those with boats should be paying for marine based services. No one should be paying for services or goods they are not using. At least directly.

Well this is nice in theory but consider your statement on schools.

Do the children deserve to be able to go to school? This is regardless of whatever the parents do. So to ensure what you said can be fulfilled, we must require a "deposit" before giving birth. Otherwise forced abortion. Otherwise it is impossible to ensure.

So I disagree with you. I don't think people with school aged children "should" be paying for schools.

As far as property taxes go. Boats also have property taxes imposed. So if it is not fair, why not raise property tax? Already land property tax are ridiculously low, less than 1% per year in every state which is less than inflation making it basically less than free. This means it pays rich people to own property that they do not need or use as an "investment" despite the pollution it causes to run A/C in the summer for unoccupied buildings. A reasonable property tax is 15% per year of the value on all types of property including boats, vehicles and houses. This would eliminate income tax (a poor tax) as well as reduce property value making houses more affordable and eliminate residences as an "investment" allowing more equity. The same 15% per year tax also imposed on boat value is reasonable.

If you complain you are in my eyes a rich ass who enjoys stepping on people struggling to your advantage profiting from short-sighted "gains" while supporting a system that destroys the ecology and balance of nature with ultimate doom for the fate of humanity.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Harv1941

Property Tax? Had none, my yacht was Coast Guard Documented and was exempt from the property tax in Virginia, Maryland and the District of Columbia. This was due to the Documented status of my yacht.....

Absolutely nothing about USCG documentation “exempts” a boat from property taxes. In the US property taxes are a local matter and the federal government doesn’t get involved. Documentation doesn’t even exempt you from state registration, where required, which is how many states bill personal property tax. Documentation only exempts (and in fact forbids) you from displaying state registration numbers. All other local laws apply to your boat.

In Virginia property tax on boats is a city/county measure. Virginia Beach, for instance has no property tax on boats (and marinas there advertise that fact) while Richmond, VA has a property tax on boats of $3.75 per $100 of assessed value. Norfolk has a nominal boat property tax and even says on their webpage that you need to keep your address details up to date with the USCG if your boat is documented so they can send you your property tax bill based on USCG records.

Maryland has no personal property tax on boats, although they do have a 5% excise tax if the boat is principally used in Maryland.

In DC personal property tax depends on how the boat is owned/used, but a DC registration is required, even of documented boats, and that registration is used, in part, to track taxability.