Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-06-2010, 12:51   #1
Senior Cruiser
 
starfish62's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Boat: Gulfstar 44 Sloop
Posts: 647
Images: 4
Scuttling a Vessel

There is a steel boat close to mine that has sprung a pretty big leak and over the past few days has almost sunk daily. It has several leaks, actually. This is in the intracoastal and if the boat went down there it would cause some problems. The owner called me this morning and asked if I knew what the law was if he was able to get the boat out over three miles (international waters) and scuttle it after getting all of the oil, fuel, etc out of it. I have no idea (I'm not a lawyer.) He is apparently destitute and can't afford to fix it and has tried to donate it to several non-profits, to no avail. The boat is in Florida. Any maritime attorneys out there?
__________________

__________________
Starfish
starfish62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 12:53   #2
Eternal Member
 
Chief Engineer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: North of Baltimore
Boat: Ericson 27 & 18' Herrmann Catboat
Posts: 3,798
Call a scrap dealer
__________________

__________________
Chief Engineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 15:09   #3
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,954
Images: 6
Yeah, he needs to turn it over to someone for salvage. I'm not sure of all of the regulations, but I am certain that there are many. Before you go deliberately sinking a ship at sea my guess is that the EPA is going to want to certify that you really have removed all of the gas and oil from it, as well as any other toxic materials.

Don't know what the consequences would be if he sailed it out several miles and then it "accidentally" sank. But even that would be more work than making a few phone calls and finding someone who would take it off of his hands. There are plenty of companies in south Florida that do salvage work. Does it have an engine in it? That alone, even if it doesn't work, would make it worthwhile for someone to salvage.
__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 16:13   #4
Senior Cruiser
 
starfish62's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Boat: Gulfstar 44 Sloop
Posts: 647
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Yeah, he needs to turn it over to someone for salvage. I'm not sure of all of the regulations, but I am certain that there are many. Before you go deliberately sinking a ship at sea my guess is that the EPA is going to want to certify that you really have removed all of the gas and oil from it, as well as any other toxic materials.

Don't know what the consequences would be if he sailed it out several miles and then it "accidentally" sank. But even that would be more work than making a few phone calls and finding someone who would take it off of his hands. There are plenty of companies in south Florida that do salvage work. Does it have an engine in it? That alone, even if it doesn't work, would make it worthwhile for someone to salvage.
He's tried to donate it to three different schools and to salvage yards but they say the metal $$ doesn't cover barge/crane, etc. But thanks for the ideas. This guy is a semi-retired marine who had some family medical expenses that wiped him out financially and he's sort of grasping at straws now because if it sinks where it is there will be a lot of charges involved with floating & salvage. It's his problem, but I thought I'd float the idea and see if he would be okay if he made international waters before the boat sank.
__________________
Starfish
starfish62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 16:18   #5
Registered User
 
Sabbatical II's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie
Boat: Bluewater 420 CC
Posts: 756
Images: 1
Asking for forgiveness is always easier than seeking permission.
__________________
Greg
Sabbatical II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 18:24   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
maxingout's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fort Pierce, Phoenix
Boat: Privilege 39 Catamaran, Exit Only
Posts: 2,606
I would haul it out in a boatyard. If you are not BP, the fines for polluting with oil and diesel fuel could easily hit $50,000 dollars. It would be unwise to allow the vessel to sink.

When I was living aboard in Florida, a powerboat sprung a leak in a fuel tank, with fuel running into the bilge. The bilge pump simply pumped it overboard, and the fine for the incident was in excess of $50,000.
__________________
Dave -Sailing Vessel Exit Only

http://SailingUNI.com
http://maxingout.com
http://PositiveThinkingSailor.com
maxingout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 19:27   #7
cruiser

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa to New York
Boat: Morgan 33 OutIsland, Magic and 33' offshore scott design "Cutting Edge"
Posts: 1,594
I think the proper way would be to remove the fuel tanks and engine, then clean bilge thoroughly. All boats are required to have that waste disposal regulations placard. It states from 12-25 miles off the restrictions are dunnage that float and plastic. So if uou go past the 12 mi line should be ok.3-12 mi metal is prohibited
__________________
forsailbyowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 19:44   #8
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
I've done this as part of an artificial reef project. All wiring, electrical and electronic systems need to be removed. All non-metal plumbing. All cushions and anything that could float, including floorboards, must be removed. Fuel tanks, any plastic tanks, engine, tranny, generator. Bottom line is that ALL plastic has to be removed as well as anything that's ever contained oil or fuel.

The boat needs to be sunk in a place in won't snag fishing nets. This is harder than you think, unless the boat is anchored first prior to being scuttled.

Bottom line, it's not easy to do it legal, and doing it illegally could lead to substantive fines. Regardless of fines, our biggest worry was liability, which I'm told doesn't stop when the boat hits the bottom. You drop a boat 12.5 miles offshore and it snags some poor fisherman's $12,000 trawl, guess who's got a problem.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 20:12   #9
Registered User
 
pressuredrop's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: West Palm Beach
Boat: Allied Seawind 30
Posts: 794
elie, is this the boat right by yours?, if you guys need help keeping her afloat ill take a shift pumping her out, i got plenty of time on my hands let me know...
__________________
pressuredrop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 22:47   #10
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,153
Its illegal to dump plastics at sea any distance from the shore and technically, paint is a plastic.
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2010, 17:14   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
Its illegal to dump plastics at sea any distance from the shore and technically, paint is a plastic.
I went diving on some legally sunk wrecks this last weekend; they still had paint on them in some areas. I don't think it's practical to sand blast a destroyer before sinking it, but maybe they had a waiver or something.

All that being said, I'd be extremely cautious about intentionally scuttling a vessel in or near US waters. Anyone who sees a boat sinking would call the USCG who will respond, and now you're dealing with the long arm of the law.

Theoretically, you could do something like this:

1) get all the cushions, plastic, batteries, and fuel off.
2) go out with someone you trust following you with another vessel, who doesn't mind possibly being implicated in a crime. go at night.
3) go somewhere extremely deep. at least a few hundred feet, accounting for current drift as it sinks.
4) pop the thruhulls, open the hatches, get the hell off the boat fast.
5) get a ride home on your friend's boat, and hope it all worked out according to plan.

You can look at it a few ways. Plenty of countries get rid of boats this way and have been for a long time, but if done stupidly or in excess it becomes a huge problem. The responsible thing is to call a salvage place, or at least have it hauled out and towed to a yard.

If there is *zero* options otherwise, make it as safe as possible for marine life and sink it in a deep enough place as where it is impossible for it to interfere with maritime operations.

Know that your friend would be breaking the law and if caught punished. Worse, he could end up scrambling rescue crews responding to a report of a sinking vessel, taking valuable time (and tax dollars) away from real problems and potentially putting people's lives at risk.
__________________
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2010, 17:45   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
If the guy went for a sail and the bildge pump fell overbaord or got unintentionally shut off he would have to call mayday (once the thing was really under from his handheld in the dinghy)....what could be done? If a "passer by" responded so much the better. Even if it was a caravan of friends out for a sail, then no maday would even have to be called. What's the crime of sinking or picking up a freind in need?
__________________
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2010, 20:30   #13
Registered User
 
Jesse's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oro Bay Puget Sound
Boat: Irwin sloop
Posts: 374
I know some people, who know some people, who have heard of people who make abandoned boats dissapear from marinas, never to be seen again. Ever wonder what happens to them? The boats I mean.
__________________
Jesse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 15:26   #14
Registered User
 
SabreKai's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada on Lake Ontario
Boat: Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 1,287
Images: 5
Strip her out of all materials as per the law, then make arrangements to have her hauled out in a yard 50-100 miles up the coast. Take her out and Opps, she spring a leak and sank. Having someone convoy with you is only a good precaution on a boat that leaks like a sieve.

PlanB would be to have her hauled locally, stuck in back corner of the yard and let the fellow chop her up for scrap himself.

Sabre
__________________
SabreKai
SV Sabre Dance, Roberts Offshore 38
http://sabredancing.wordpress.com/
SabreKai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 15:37   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Jupiter FL
Boat: temporarily boatless...
Posts: 723
but it's OK for the military to dump unexploded ordnance all over the place...as long as you put it on the charts.
__________________

__________________
pete33458 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How Much Did You Pay, or Are Willing to Pay, for Your Cruising Vessel ? sailorboy1 Dollars & Cents 44 13-04-2010 07:48
What Do You Think of this Vessel ? Scare_Rab Monohull Sailboats 30 26-02-2010 17:31
Vessel Preparedness Caribsailors Cruising News & Events 16 06-09-2008 12:27
Non EU Vessel in a EU Port TassieBloke Europe & Mediterranean 26 05-04-2008 20:49
Size of vessel Pygar62 General Sailing Forum 12 10-11-2007 08:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:38.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.