Which new engine for repower

[colemj]

Originally Posted by NorthPacific

No problem checking Fluid levels. But as I said for the gearbox I have to dismantle 1/2 the boat.

BTW, fluids involve gearcase oil and needing to tear apart 1/2 the boat is not the engines fault.

Personally, I don't think you will go wrong with any new engine you buy. If you have access restrictions, I would pick the one that allowed easiest service. After that, I would chose your favorite color.

Mark

[NorthPacific]

I was thinking about a Beta.

As it seems Yanmar have caught the Volvo disease. As to the Colour green, being Irish I am quite fond of it. But not at the money grabbing Volvo mentality.
Steve

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by nhschneider

One of the main reasons is that the engine is designed for earth-moving equipment, which receives some of the roughest treatment of any diesel engine application and they have an excellent reputation for reliability in that area. The Yanmar and Volvo engines are designed for pleasure boats, which is an extremely light duty application.
Fair winds and calm seas.

I don't know where these ideas got a foot hold but they are simply not realistic... Yanmar and Shibaura engines (Shibaura = Perkins & Volvo) are both widely used in industrial and tractor applications. John Deer and others have been using Yanmar engines for years. I often find Yanmar parts a lot cheaper at my local John Deer dealer, if you know how to be creative....

Yanmar even makes their own industrial Earth moving equipment...


This is my neighbors John Deer with a Yanmar 3 cylinder diesel..


But to answer the OP's question it would be Beta for me...

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

I don't know where these ideas got a foot hold but they are simply not realistic... Yanmar and Shibaura engines (Shibaura = Perkins & Volvo) are both widely used in industrial and tractor applications. John Deer and others have been using Yanmar engines for years. I often find Yanmar parts a lot cheaper at my local John Deer dealer, if you know how to be creative....

Yanmar even makes their own industrial Earth moving equipment...


This is my neighbors John Deer with a Yanmar 3 cylinder diesel..


But to answer the OP's question it would be Beta for me...

Yup... Volvo and Perkins are both Shibaura engines and are used in everything from tree chippers, to earth movers, to pumps and compressors. Actually the base engine used in the MD2030 is a Perkins 103-10 (or Shibaura S753-D) and is one of the most widely used industrial engine.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find Shibaura engine parts in North America as Perkins is the exclusive importer. They seem to control the parts flow very carefully. Outside of North America (especially asia) you can get Shibaura parts for much less.

Like I said to the OP earlier.. I would look at Nanni as they use the same base engines as Beta and are cheaper (and many say better).

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by colemj

And that is if one did not go to Perkins to get the same Volvo part for 30% less.

It was in my thinking at the time that I bought the D2-40F that I might get parts through Perkins. Fat chance. Last time I checked a couple of years ago Perkins didn't make the parts available for retail sales; the engine is only sold to OEMs and so are the parts. Very annoying. In any event many of the parts that might need replacing are marine-specifc and only available from Volvo. I will check out Shibaura sources.

If you really want a shock check out the replacement costs for the heat exchanger/exhaust manifold for either the Volvo or the Yanmar. Obscene.

After many years of cruising I decided to go with either Volvo or Yanmar because they both have dealers just about anywhere one might go, even though the prices are crazy. I had a Sabb diesel, and received great support from the factory after the US distribution ended; the problem is getting the parts through customs in developing countries that depend on tariffs for revenue. Sometimes things go well, but sometimes it requires time, money, and a customs agent to get them. (Actually one of my worst experiences was in the UK, whose customs are legendary, but that wasn't about the engine.) If it weren't for this concern I would have gone with the Beta, for the excellent design and quality, for the configuration flexibility, for the Kubota parts sources, and for the good reports on support in the US, and in the UK from the manufacturer.

Greg

[colemj]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

It was in my thinking at the time that I bought the D2-40F that I might get parts through Perkins. Fat chance. Last time I checked a couple of years ago Perkins didn't make the parts available for retail sales; the engine is only sold to OEMs and so are the parts. Very annoying. In any event many of the parts that might need replacing are marine-specifc and only available from Volvo. I will check out Shibaura sources.

Are you saying that Perkins no longer makes engines in these sizes? Or no longer makes equivalent ones to Volvo? In other words, there is no Perkins equivalent to your D2-40?

If so, that is too bad. The Perkins Perama M30 is exactly identical in every way to our Volvo MD2030 (except for color). We can get all parts for our Volvo through Perkins dealers. The part numbers aren't the same, but all I have to do is go on-line and look at the schematics for the correct numbers.

Mark

[CarinaPDX]

Mark-

You are a bit out of date

My understanding, which may be flawed, is as follows:

Perkins-Sabre was a joint venture that built the M30, etc. They bought (commonly used) Perkins blocks, marinized and sold them through marine channels. In the early '90s they designed a new range of small marine diesel engines in response to environmental requirements (and no doubt other reasons). These engines started life in Asia, and were imported by Perkins for sale to OEMs (such as Perkins-Sabre). The new Perkins-Sabre engines were sold briefly in the UK, and perhaps elsewhere, and extended to smaller engines than P-S were known for. Meanwhile, Volvo needed to update their small marine diesel line to comply with environmental standards. A deal was done where Volvo took over the P-S product line (to the great annoyance of British owners who suddenly had to pay a lot more for parts) and Perkins got out of the small (<65hp) marine diesel engine market, in return for supplying the engine blocks and designs to Volvo. This was a good deal for Perkins as they weren't strong in distribution of the smaller engines, and for Volvo who had the customers and distribution but not the engines.

Unfortunately for those of us trying to work around Volvo is that the small engines are in the Perkins 400 series, which is sold to OEMs as I said before. My Volvo-Penta D2-40F is built from a Perkins 404D-15 engine, but Perkins does not (or at least didn't) offer parts at retail for this engine series.

Overall, the costs to build a new, compliant line of diesel engines simply can't be justified by sales to the marine segment alone - with few exceptions all current marine diesels are marine conversions of utility engines (even Yanmar). My old Sabb was a true marine diesel, with the flywheel in front to enable the engine to fit further aft in the boat, and capable of salt water cooling. (The aft flywheel on utility diesels does create issues for replacing the old engine.)

Greg

[colemj]

Thanks for that Greg. Yes, I am out of date because I only need to worry about our current 1998 engines. Thankfully, I can still get a price break from Perkins on them!

Mark

[CarinaPDX]

Mark-

It looks like your engine was one that was built both under the Perkins-Sabre brand and after the sale with the Volvo brand. When in the UK in 1997-8 I met a P-S owner who was unhappy about the Volvo takeover because of parts support - perhaps his concern was based more on rumor than fact as you are able to deal with Perkins. My engine is newer and was never sold by Perkins-Sabre. I just checked and the parts are available for some other 400 series engines, but apparently not the specific model I have (404D-15). It is interesting that Perkins rates the engine at 35.5hp (@3000rpm) and 33hp (@2800rpm) while Volvo says 38hp (@3200rpm). Needless to say I will not be operating at 3200rpm so it is more than a little misleading. Anyway the base engine is Perkins, and I expect it to be reliable (after I update the controller black box!).

Greg

[icemate]

Originally Posted by Suijin

The only fact is my own experience, which is newer Yammers run a bit smoother and are slightly more efficient. I've always assumed it was because of the electronic controls, but it may not be that, and my experience is hardly comprehensive and is ad hoc, but I have heard the same comments from a few other folks...and not as a ding against Beta. As an aside, I never considered turbo diesels to be normally aspirated, but you learn something new every day.

FYI my Universal is a normally aspirated Kubota block and it does not run as smooth as either a Yanmar or a Beta, so I don't think those two aspects guarantee comparable performance in and of themselves.

That said, I'd take the Beta for a variety of reasons.

I had a Volve Penta on my Nan-Tai 37. Heavy, dirty, noisey, expensive to repair, bad transmission design. Replace it with a Yanmar while in NZ and was very pleased. Lighter, very quite, efficient and clean. I highly recommend the Yanmar.

[Julie Mor]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Well I have finally come to terms with the fact that we need to repower. I have decided on one of two 50hp engines, Yanmar and Beta. Both are easy installs in our Moody. The Beta is $1500 more which is a surprise as in the past they have been cheaper but maybe its the British pound. Which one would you choose and why???

Any chance you'll give D-E hybrid a look? A couple we met in Annapolis had a Moody and repowered it with electric.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

Any chance you'll give D-E hybrid a look? A couple we met in Annapolis had a Moody and repowered it with electric.

No Julie at this point in my life I have to stick to the tried and true.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

as you are able to deal with Perkins.

To be clear, I only deal with companies that sell Perkins parts - not Perkins itself. For example, Transatlantic Diesel and Marinepartsexpress.

Mark

[icemate]

Originally Posted by NorthPacific

For those that know the rough prices on the west coast of North America what $ would I be looking at to replace a Volvo MD 17C. I have a 1984 Dufour 35 heavily ladened for offshore cruising. Yanmar and Beta.

I understand about options etc just so that I have a ball park figure.
Also am I correct in thinking that my lovely flexafold folding prop is useless as well.

I put mine in while in NZ. Replace same Volvo with yanmar 35 for under $12000 complete with new shaft, prop, dripless bearing. 8 years ago. Could not believe I kept the Volvo in so long. Yanmar was a dream. I had a heavy duty 37 Nan-Tai (Ta Shing Built). Clean, quite, efficient.
Hope it helps

[CarinaPDX]

Back in the '70s Volvo had a large share of the original equipment installs, and Yanmar was still a small player in the US. The Volvo designs were old; the engines were heavy, low tech, often sea-water cooled (inside the engine), and not really competitive to the new Yanmars that made a big hit in the '80s (Yanmar had also made old-fashioned engines for years, but relatively few made it to US boats). So Volvo got a bad reputation, but really the bad rep should belong to the old designs of all manufacturers - not just Volvo. Volvo does deserve a ding for their high parts prices, which were striking when compared to the Yanmar prices of the '80s.

So fast forward to today. Yanmar engine and parts prices are roughly the same as Volvo's. Both offer state-of-the-art engines that are light, powerful, clean-burning and efficient, based on large production runs of engines that are used in many demanding applications. While it is understandable that anyone that has been soldiering on with an old-fashioned design would want to run screaming in the opposite direction, I don't see that as an objective argument to use against the modern Volvo engines. As an owner of a similar vintage engine (Sabb) I appreciate that any design that originated half a century ago needs to be put out to pasture, but that is not a criticism of the manufacturer of the day. In fact I think that any engine that is still running 40 years later is a testimony to the durability of the design, regardless of the problems encountered in keeping it running.

When I looked for a new engine I had originally passed over the Volvo due to the history of high parts costs, but after reviewing the data learned that Yanmar had become just as expensive. I find little difference between the two brands in costs or quality - both are high quality but are not perfect. The telling differences were that the Yanmar had a 3" exhaust (a huge PITA to convert) and didn't offer a serpentine belt (v-belt only). The Volvo comes with a 115A alternator and serpentine belt while the Yanmar would require either a second belt or a switch to serpentine in order to drive a large alternator. As noted earlier I decided to limit the decision to these two engines because world-wide local support is available.

The Beta has the best marinization I have seen. It also is greatly customizable at purchase, from belts and alternators to instrument packages, so you get the engine you want and not a one-size-fits-all requiring modifications at installation. My reason for not going there is simply that I have suffered with shipping in parts for decades, and am unwilling to continue to do that in distant harbors. YMMV

Greg