small cat liveaboard&slow circumnavigation: PDQ 32 or FP 35 Tobago or Lagoon 35CCC

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I am confident with a performance cat.

Flying a hull:was that a TRT GT open bridgedeck, minimum on with outbourds and carbon race sails?
How is she to sail and handle in normal mode? Great you had experience with TRT and can give me first hand info.

It was a GT, with laminate sails, and outboard motors. In 20 knots of wind, is what I think I it took to fly a hull upwind. The owner avoided as much as possible. Usually someone on the helm and another person manning the traveler. Releasing the main sheet wasnt fast enough. I think I to cruise it, you would plan to be reefed most of the time. Or put on a pinhead main. Of course adding weight would help, and the boat had lots of buoyancy to handle it.

[smj]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

It was a GT, with laminate sails, and outboard motors. In 20 knots of wind, is what I think I it took to fly a hull upwind. The owner avoided as much as possible. Usually someone on the helm and another person manning the traveler. Releasing the main sheet wasnt fast enough. I think I to cruise it, you would plan to be reefed most of the time. Or put on a pinhead main. Of course adding weight would help, and the boat had lots of buoyancy to handle it.

I was told the GT flipped under spinnaker in 20 kts of wind. One of the rudders became disabled and the other rudder wasn’t enough to stop the boat from rounding up.
I was reading an old article in Multihull Magazine about a CR that sailed from Europe to the S Pacific. In 8-12 kts of wind they were averaging over 200 mile days with 2 reefs in the main and a self tacking jib.
It would be interesting to see how much weight could be added before greatly affecting performance and seaworthiness. There isn’t a lot of boat below the waterline but they do have a pretty significant knuckle and flare. I also wonder about the affect on the structure as she becomes heavy and starts traveling through the waves rather than over.

[CaptainRivet]

@smj: the max. payload of 14400lb was given to me by the manufacturer. I am sure they tested that. But I would keep an eye on it and keep as light as possible.

thank you guys for information and your opinion
regarding flying a hull, capsize thats what I expected.
It is also inline with what the owner said she goes windspeed till 15kn of wind. It's the heavy CR version and the really heavy stuff like inboarder, full galley with big fridge/oven...(see post before) is on already and still performance really well, not affected at all.
I won't have the spinnacker in 20kn of wind out...also 8-12kn with 2 reef means I could easly raise the boom a bit by eg 20-30cm to get more headroom for the bimini and then would need 1 reef for 8-12kn of wind. 2 bunnies at the same time and plenty options. Also when replacing the sails I could go to less good ones, safes a lot money too.

Sumed up

- TRT sails well also in very lite wind, means my diesel consumption would be very low as I can sail a lot while a normal condo would have to motor/motorsail. So the small diesel tank could be sufficent, this I know only when getting experience and trying it out. But fixing that if not sufficent by adding bladder+jerry cans is cheap and easy to do.
- TRT needs early reefing, which is fine with me. improving that to later reefing I have plenty good options like rasing boom, less good and cheaper sails, adding some weight within spec...
- I should budget in strom sails
- stay as light as possible, 14400lb is maybe a bit too ambigious from the manufacturer.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I won't have the spinnacker in 20kn of wind out...also 8-12kn with 2 reef means I could easly raise the boom a bit by eg 20-30cm to get more headroom for the bimini and then would need 1 reef for 8-12kn of wind. 2 bunnies at the same time and plenty options. Also when replacing the sails I could go to less good ones, safes a lot money too.

Less good or cheaper sails will not affect or reduce the capsize moment. Moving the boom up and keeping the length the same may also increase the height of the centre of effort even with a slight reduction in total area. Tipping forces are directly related to area and centre of effort not the material.

"Fly a Bow"? Do you mean fly a hull?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Less good or cheaper sails will not affect or reduce the capsize moment. Moving the boom up and keeping the length the same may also increase the height of the centre of effort even with a slight reduction in total area. Tipping forces are directly related to area and centre of effort not the material.

"Fly a Bow"? Do you mean fly a hull?

yes Flying a hull, s... autocorrection


I was told by 2 sailmakers at the interboat booth that cheaper sails do reduce capsizing risk as it depowers the boat. Cheap sails transfer less force from the wind to the boat, so it creates less speed, a well known fact. And because less force transfered from wind to boat (=less efficient), it's less force that moving up the boat= flying a hull needs more force = windspeed where it happens is higher. Sounds logic to me.

Is it true? Open for discussion here...


if I just move the boom up I reduce the sail area. True when I move the boom up, the center of gravity will move up a bit too. But because sail area is quite reduced as shorting sail from below is quite a surface gone, i would assume that less surface=less force transfered counts much more then the bit the center of gravity is raised, means the hull flying point is later.

You said keeping the same length when moving the boom up which I don't do here. I would more or less keep 30cm sail lying in the lazy jacks if it is fully hoisted=maybe 1/3 to 1/2 a reef here.

And if I then go to the 3rd reef with a higher mounted boom, I in fact have approx a 3.5th reef in as total sail area is smaller then original in the 3rd reef. Or do I miss here something?

[smj]

What is a cheaper sail? If it means a smaller sail then yes it may mean less power. If cheaper means a cheaper sail cloth or a bad cut then that could actually mean more power when you don’t want it?

[Boonzajer]

If I were in your shoes (and I was, for a few years...) I would pay a lot of attention to the sailing characteristics and the max payload. The ones I am familiar with are Fountaine Pajots, so I can say nothing about the others. Your choice for the Tobago is excellent: it still is a true sailing vessel. Same goes for the Athena 38, might be worth a try (but in that case beware of ex-charters). If well kept, you cannot go wrong. I finally settled for a Lavezzi, but these are out of your financial range. This (with the Mahe) was the last of the true sailing vessels produced by Fountaine Pajot. After this, they went Lagoon - more room, more bathrooms, but a drastic reduction in sailing characteristics.

If you are able to pick up a Mahe you will not be disappointed either. The reason I finally did not buy one was the payload: 1000 kilos max. This includes everything - water and diesel, anchor and chain, people and food. A Lavezzi has 2500 kilos.


So my advice would be: if you can live with very strict weight reductions - go for a Mahe in the first place. They sell from 130K euros upwards. And the good thin is: they are simple boats. There is not much on them that can go wrong. If you buy the Mark 1 (without the polyester full length canopy) they might even be cheaper. Good luck.

[Tedneal]

PM Sent

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tedneal

PM Sent

thank you, really appreciate and will write you a PM


@boonzajor: meets exactly my reseach and reason why I chosen the Tobago to be on my shortlist beside fitting in my budget.

I am looking for a sailboat to live on, prepared and aware of some compromises I have to make due to that and not a mobile home with sails :-)

Sure Mahe would be great but if in my spec mostly rocked down charters....

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by smj

What is a cheaper sail? If it means a smaller sail then yes it may mean less power. If cheaper means a cheaper sail cloth or a bad cut then that could actually mean more power when you don’t want it?

I can understand a bad cut could actually mean more power/force and even earlier fly the hull, thats not what I ment.


But cheaper sail cloth I can't understand why, could you please explain why.
Because that's exactly what sailmaker ment. The cheaper cloth will stretch more under wind force and that loss is not transfered via the sail to the hull so less tipping force=later fly the hull. Thats also why the boat slows down with cheaper sail cloth. The North sail guy told me that.

[smj]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I can understand a bad cut could actually mean more power/force and even earlier fly the hull, thats not what I ment.


But cheaper sail cloth I can't understand why, could you please explain why.
Because that's exactly what sailmaker ment. The cheaper cloth will stretch more under wind force and that loss is not transfered via the sail to the hull so less tipping force=later fly the hull. Thats also why the boat slows down with cheaper sail cloth. The North sail guy told me that.

When the sailcloth stretches it forms a belly in the sail which should power it up. You want to flatten a sail to depower. Least that’s my understanding.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by smj

When the sailcloth stretches it forms a belly in the sail which should power it up. You want to flatten a sail to depower. Least that’s my understanding.

Correct.

But

Certainly well cut, hi-tech sails are more powerful when sailing with the apparent wind forward of the beam. All other points of sail the force is directly related to area, the shape, cloth, cut is irrelevant. If you are caught beam on to a strong blow with the full main sheeted you could flip; or running with too much sail regards of the cost of the sails you could pitch pole.

The North "sales" guy is getting carried away with his "sails" pitch.

[CaptainRivet]

thanks guys.
Understood.
Well luxery problems...most looking for more speed.
Reefing early, sail conservative and see how TRT behaves with the additional payload for my circum. And solution to fix if needed is not that expensive, not a killer for me.

And I factor in my budget storm sails too.

[fcftampa]

The TRT is now marked as sold.
Are you the new owner?!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by fcftampa

The TRT is now marked as sold.
Are you the new owner?!

Well a French guy and myself made an offer on the asking price, I even offered as is. French guy made his offer 2 hours before me without looking at it and the owner went further with him as he was first. But further process is not going well.... So I hope he screws it up. Sucks as I am sold on the TRT...great fast cruising cat and it is in excellent condition.. Assume he got notice through this thread...

Well I have another TRT I am in contact with the owner but that would really stretch my budget...