small cat liveaboard&slow circumnavigation: PDQ 32 or FP 35 Tobago or Lagoon 35CCC

[CaptainRivet]

Hi all,


i am in the transfering stage of turning from house&work&overloaded calendar in switzerland to liveaboard sailor and discover the world. Wanted to always do it when retired but decided to do it 15-20 years earlier=now...less budget, smaler boat and luxery but I will be happier and do it now.

House is for sale, job cancelled...and looking for boats



Have 10 years sailing experience, mostly meds but also costal ocean/north sea and crossed the ocean twice on a mono and a cat. Spend last 3 years every time I could organise it (thanks to crewseekers) on different boats (types, sizes) to find out what I need, like and what's clearly a NoGo when living on a boat and doing long passages.
Will sail most time single handed, some month of the year my wife (worked in the past on RoRo ships in baltic sea) will join and occassionally friends too.

So I set boat up mainly for me and partly the government ähm wife friends have to deal with what they get....and they are ok with that.

Will try to do cirumnavigation but slow and discover, Caribic, Tropics, Asia/Fiji, Austrlia , SA, Hawaii but most likely swap the 3 capes and take the channels.....if its not a full circum around the world it's not...go with the flow and stay where I like...

NoGo is healing over for liveaboard for me(!) as it makes everything harder, (especially sailing single handed and heavly healed in tough conditions) and less comfy, so I am definitly set on a cat. Several other reasons for a cat too like everything is above waterline and thats a big plus in single handed sailing. But healing is the show stopper for a monohull for me. Makes fun to "trash" a 50.5 ft charted monohull through a week of strom with constant 35-40kn, gusts to 60 with an experienced crew but to live on it and sail single handed eg a storm, NO. My 2 atlantic crossing confirmed that.



Budget for the next 5-7 years is 300-400KEuro all in. If I need less, good but I wanna have piece of mind that even when an engine needs to be replace I am not broke. And this will happen one way or the other.

Thats why I decided I wanna go for a 100K budget to buy a small catamaran. Small is good, enough for me and every feet costs go exponentially up. Yes length runs but I have time and discover. But it should sail ok too.

Aim is to get a decent cat in good shape with a good and quite up to date equipment already for longer distance like the caribics. No project boat but I am a handyman so some things to repair, refit, customize to my needs or add eg a watermaker, swap Lithiums in etc is ok...20KEuro Budget for that, if its 30 also still ok.

My research narrowed it down to 3 cats which I think fits me:
1) FP 35 Tobago
2) PDQ 32 LRC or outboards
3) Lagoon 35CCC
the Seawind 1000 would be also a great boat but budget to get a decent is 150-170k and they are mainly in australia plus screening/travel cost too high.

But are this 3 capable of what I wanna do?


PDQ32:
I now that a PDQ 32LRC sailed single handed from Canada to austraila via Fijis and Zero to Cruising on a outboard version did extended travel and livearboard on it too. I also like the setup, centre cockpit and a very relaible boat. couldn't find much till anything bad about them. It is defintly capable blue water cat and does the job.
But the least accessable for me and most are sold in US or Canada, but I can manage if I spot a good one worth screening. My favorite from research but very few boats on the market and if only outboard version.

Your thoughts on it please.



What do you thing about a FP 35 Tobago for the above purpose:

Its the most avaliable/accessable for me and I spoted 2 that had a recent complete retrofit with engine overhaul asking price for 80-95K.
Also galley up, only with 3 berth (one I would convert to storage etc. but easily put back if needed for a short time for eg guests).



Or the Lagoon 35CCC, yes rated as coastal cruiser but mainly due to the missing 2 escape hatches it doesn't pass offshore requirement due to my research. True? On a small cat I can live with that but if its true that this is blue water capable?


Well the always mentioned Prouts is not my cup of tea, neither the "UK" camping cats (sorry not for me, if your happy with them great) like a Catalac.

[tomfl]

Problem is at your price point the condition of any boat you find is the key consideration. Only one of those boats I have ever been on is the PDQ. Some folks would argue the gas outboard is an issue and you need a more fuel efficient motor. Since I am not a fan of motoring that would not be an issue. But the PDQ I was on was in terrible shape; in great part due to it's age. But both of the other boats you mentioned may well be just as old and not in good shape. The PDQ I was on did not have escape hatches.

Sorry to not be able to answer your question but buying an old low tier cat is basically finding one in good shape more than choosing a specific model.

[Jeannius]

Old Privilege 36 to 39. Definitely in budget if you are talking Euros, less choice but in budget if US$. Definitely the best built older, smaller, ocean capable cat. Search username Maxingout and boat name Exit Only on this board for much, much more info and go to http://maxingout.com/ . He's been there and done that.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Problem is at your price point the condition of any boat you find is the key consideration. Only one of those boats I have ever been on is the PDQ. Some folks would argue the gas outboard is an issue and you need a more fuel efficient motor. Since I am not a fan of motoring that would not be an issue. But the PDQ I was on was in terrible shape; in great part due to it's age. But both of the other boats you mentioned may well be just as old and not in good shape. The PDQ I was on did not have escape hatches.
Sorry to not be able to answer your question but buying an old low tier cat is basically finding one in good shape more than choosing a specific model.

Fully agree on all you said and condition is the key.

But I also figured I have to limit myself to a bunch of specific models otherwise I get fully lost in the search. Its already hard to find a small cat that fits the book. Most in this size are day or weekend sailors or really really old ones. Prepared to go to off locations, lower price too. But that also means I need to do a good as possible "in-depth desk check" to not blow out money on screening trips to off locations.
Another point was it chartered or not, figured that 35" FP and Lagoon are mostly too small for charter business maybe except caribean and FL/US but eg Europe thats the case. So my aim is to find a owner boat less hands possible and well taken care, so less abuse and lately refitted. Also best to buy directly from owner.

Found a 1997 FP 35, 3 owners with first 2 years charter and since then private, last owner had it for 14years now. Med boat that was completely refitted in/out in 2016/7 for a new chapter of their life to liveaboard and blue water/carbic starting this year and both engines overhauled last year...sold because of sudden illness of wife which will keep them away from cruising for a long time, so that never happened. Sounds and looks exactly what i am looking for...documentation prooved his story&history of the cat.
Boat is on "good bye cruise" in med till end of month,will look&testsail it in 2-3weeks.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Jeannius

Old Privilege 36 to 39. Definitely in budget if you are talking Euros, less choice but in budget if US$. Definitely the best built older, smaller, ocean capable cat. Search username Maxingout and boat name Exit Only on this board for much, much more info and go to Maxing Out - Three Generations - One Boat - One Giant Adventure . He's been there and done that.

thank you.
Yes budget is Euro...ok 110K for boat and 20-30k refit for the right one is Ok too.
Added the Privilege 36 to my list too, especially 36 seems to fit my book well and somehow slipped through my research.

37' and 39' I had in my inital research and all below 130k were rocked down old tropic charter boats. These brokers are worse then the travel agency catalogs, they write well taken care boat and then you look at pics and get eye cancer from what you see.
So I excluded them (37/39). the more berth the more heavly a charter cat...The 35 has just 2 berth, so I discovered you can find more in good condition because they are owner boats.
But if you find by chance one worth checking please PN or posted it here.

[Boatguy30]

Tobago would be Ok, maybe if you can find one cheap with blown motors and then replace just one motor with diesel and have on outboard on other hull or both hulls with outboards. It really is a lot of weight difference on a cat this size. Few production cats under 38' have the payload for long term cruising.

[harlem24]

Perhaps also look at the Broadblue 385.
A bit larger than what you where looking for, but well in the price range.
Or perhaps a Lagoon 380, there are some coming on the market and Lagoon stoped production.
Okay the Lagoon are ex charters, but will you find anything else in the price range? And most of the time they are younger at the same price.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Tobago would be Ok, maybe if you can find one cheap with blown motors and then replace just one motor with diesel and have on outboard on other hull or both hulls with outboards. It really is a lot of weight difference on a cat this size. Few production cats under 38' have the payload for long term cruising.

I am aware of the payload of the small cats. I am most time/when payload counts on long passage with a lot diesel and provosions alone or 2 people.
better 2 new 20hp Diesels in my opinion, then 1 in and 1 AB.

But I keep an eye on weight:

- Lithium batteries, on a 600AH AGM house bank I can easyly save 80kg=one inboard engine or even more as I could get along with 300AH is the same avaliable AH then 600AH AGM. But I like to put extra AH on and also run even a AC, watermaker, coffee machine, combined Panasonic mirowave/Steamer/oven...of the battery bank plus each Lithium can act as starter battery too if necessary

- 2 small Lithium 3kg starter batteries 20AH, saves another 30-40kg.

- flexible light solar panels, as much as I can fit on the boat, lighter then fixed ones.
- 2 wind generators (keep charging at night) plus backup 12V genuine power that can load a lithium directly without charger involved (not very good for the battery but works in emergency if battery is not too big, too much AH)

- only small Honda suitcase genset as emergency backup, I have Lithium plus a lot solar to drive all high power consumption on board
- dingy a 10ft porta boat with 6hp outboard => lighter then comparing inflating one and smaller outboard+only small light davits for solar/wind gen

- additional salt water piping for head shower = on long distance wash with salt water and only rinse with fresh water afterwards => saves a lot water capacity

- small water maker+emergency manual one, with 2 people I don't need a huge amount of water => small one 12V AC one with approx 6-10l/hour that could also run off the LiPo starter battery or direct from the 2 win gen (they produce 12v genually plus put the 20AH 3kg LIthium starter as buffer, done that already on one atlantic crossing when we had a huge eletric fail) in emergency plus everything doubled/triple as spare and 2nd manual emergency one.
=> can keep the "small" fresh water tank capacity
=> smaller wiring and small watermaker=less weight
- DIY hardtop bimini (adds weight but creates comfort, weather protection and install space) that also works as "rain water catcher" made like a shower floor with a filter and 2 pipes that directly fill plastic canistors to store and filter it to be able to drink or as "shower water" => 2nd fresh water source and 3 backup for fresh water
- no strom sails but 3rd reef for main (no "unnecessary" sails)
- performance foresail (lighter and more effective), most used sail on a cat anyhow especially on a small cat with a small head sail (all 3 have that ratio)

- bowsprit for asym gennacker plus cruising shoot (weights nearly nothing but an absolute life safer in long low wind situations) =saves a lot fuel too
=>light wind sailing&downwind
=> very light downwind asym gen to one side, cruising shoot to the other=> that saved our ass in a totally overloaded FP 47ft cat with tons of gear (jetski/2 oversized diving compressors...) but standard sails and 100hp inboard instead of 40hp on a long distance delivery with only very light wind or wind from bow and didn't have enough fuel as the gen was eating it all. Owner was a motorboat guy and bought a sailing cat because wind is for free

- replace all alu tanks with plastic=> lighter and for water even better, no contact corrossion like alu

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by harlem24

Perhaps also look at the Broadblue 385.
A bit larger than what you where looking for, but well in the price range.
Or perhaps a Lagoon 380, there are some coming on the market and Lagoon stoped production.
Okay the Lagoon are ex charters, but will you find anything else in the price range? And most of the time they are younger at the same price.

I didn't see a Boardblue 385 that fitted my 100K euro range+20-30k refit, but if you know one, please post/PN
Laggon 380 there are a few in the 110 to 130 range but all long term ex bareboat charter with lot engine hours and refit needs...that will end up in 160k+ and a lot of time at the boatyard instead sailing. No thank you.

But I keep one eye on the Laggon 380, maybe there is an exception that fits.

I would love to get a 38ft cat, perfect size and allrounder. Running and refit costs go up to 35ft though. And I don't exclude them fully (laggon 380/FP 38/Privelege/38' Admiral) but:
If you get one in this price range, its 99.9% a rocked down charter bareboat or very old and abused one => you need to put a lot money and time into it...I wanna go sailing and not working on a boat in a boatyard...

As I said 35' on this 3 models I found are mostly owner boats as often too small/expensive for charter, especially here in europe. above 36' all was faced out long term charter or out of my price range
As said above in the 100k price range condtion,good low use history and quite up to date equipment is the key but if a boat is 18 or 25 years doesn't matter anymore

eg a 1995 35ft cat that was never chartered, very well maintained,quite up to date gear for long term blue water cruising, 7 month the year out of water and mainly used at med for 2month holiday and weekend boat
=>hard but possible to find in this size range
is often the much better deal
then a 2000-2004 38ft bareboat charter cat from caribean or greece/crotia area. I bet this boat has much more wear&tear in all parts then the 1995 owner one.

I would be happy if you proof me wrong here but thats the summery/result of extended search and the last 3 years trying out different boat types.

[jmh2002]

As a totally different thought have you considered a good Wharram catamaran?

A Wharram Tiki 38 is easily capable of a circumnavigation and is available at around 1/2 or 2/3 of your budget which would leave a lot of extra money to set the boat up how you want.

In fact there is one that was just recently listed for sale in the south of France for 60k euros. (and a as further guide, recently there was a Tiki 46 for 100k, and a Pahi 52 for 150k).

A nice modern Wharram is very far away from the 70s hippy camping boats.

Here is a nice example: (see Part 1 for the interior)

LUCKYFISH Boat Tour Part 2 - The DECK - Ep 46

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsCa59fyNq8

Hands Free Across the Atlantic - Ep 02 - 10 Ways Wharrams Are Wonderful #01

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwEejk7bhCw

[Jeannius]

I didn't see a Boardblue 385 that fitted my 100K euro range+20-30k refit, but if you know one, please post/PN

You said earlier you didn't like Prouts. If that is the case you won't like Broadblue. Broadblue 385 is pretty much a Prout Escale which is pretty much a Snowgoose.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Well the always mentioned Prouts is not my cup of tea, neither the "UK" camping cats (sorry not for me, if your happy with them great) like a Catalac.

Whaaat craziness are you talking? Prouts win hands down. Just kidding.

With that budget (and perhaps a tiny bit more), there things like Privilege, Lagoon 380, Lagoon 410, Athena 38, Nautitech 40, Lavezzi 40, Mahe 36, Twins 36,

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Whaaat craziness are you talking? Prouts win hands down. Just kidding.

With that budget (and perhaps a tiny bit more), there things like Privilege, Lagoon 380, Lagoon 410, Athena 38, Nautitech 40, Lavezzi 40, Mahe 36, Twins 36,

where do you find these boats for 100K budget besides hurricane damaged ones or project boats? I seem to look/research on the wrong spots.
please show me where, thank you

[CaptainRivet]

a question prout 37 twin engines:are these inboards with saildrive or fixed shafts or are these 2 stillette drives? Where are the twin engines installed, cannot find infos/fotos.

[Pugcat]

The twin engine Snowgoose 37’s are generally saildrives with the engines under the aft bunks, although there have been a couple with engines further forward and shaft drives fitted - makes an odd layout though.
Currently converting my Snowgoose 35 to twin outboards in much the same manner as a seawind but the 35 is a much lighter boat than the 37 so may not be such a good option on the 37.

By the way, aside from the aft mast the BB385 is a very different beast to the Prouts and much more like the fp’s, lagoons etc. It was the BB38 that was the crossover model, prouty layout but more modern with less nacelle and added sugar scoops. Very nice boats though and around your 100k budget